People asking for help and then rejecting advice

[ChrisRJ]

It appears to me that recently there is a growing number of people who first ask for help and then dispute the points they don't like to hear. I have a really hard time to understand this kind of behavior. When someone, by their own admission, has never dealt with a certain topic before, how can they reasonably believe they know better than someone who has written thousands of messages here over many years? The latter usually equating to a long professional experience in the field.

To make an example: While we are all sometimes wrong about details, why would I "simply" question something from e.g. @jgreco, @danb35, @Patrick M. Hausen, @Ericloewe , @sretalla , or one of the many others experts here , except I had hard experience otherwise myself? I have seen the same behavior from junior software developers, who believe e.g. that extensive branching is better than trunk-based development. And they manage to dismiss the fact that organizations like Amazon, Google, and Facebook do this and for a very good reason.

In a job setting I can understand that people want to prove themselves. Although ignoring advice from more experienced colleagues is not a clever approach for this in my opinion. But why this happens in a forum is something I would really like to understand.

Any thoughts? Thank you.

 

[sretalla]

I would start by suggesting that it's often the case in IT that there's a way to get something done regardless of what others tell you may or may not be possible (and or sensible) to do, so some folks may be working under assumptions gleaned from experience of that in other IT areas.

It's also easy to find evidence of commentary in forums like Reddit by folks who are just as uninformed as the original poster, so their "opinions" are often proven to be flawed or just plain incorrect at some point in the thread.

Based on the above, the tendency is to assume everything can be done and anyone who tells you it can't must be wrong.

I feel like a lot of people ignore the things I mention in the forum (like needing to avoid RAID cards) due to their situation (often that they have inherited or already bought that hardware) and maybe can't afford to buy anything else... also they haven't (yet) experienced actual loss of data in their past computing endeavours, so are tending toward taking the risk as long as it "works" (meaning "appears to be working initially" or even, "doesn't immediately fail or not work at all").

There's also some level of misunderstanding around "magic speed with no prerequisites or consequences"... expecting that ZFS can do reliable data storage just as fast as a different system can do it without the same data safety... or that a SLOG/L2ARC (already confuses some folks) is some kind of "write cache" where all the data is tiered at maximum speed until it can later be protected by the pool disks (TL:DR it isn't a write cache).

Even more, there's the misconception that single threaded tests like crystal diskmark are a great representation of what a storage system can do.

Anyway, those are just guesses, so I'm looking forward to any other suggestions that may explain it better.

 

[Samuel Tai]

A lot of this is cultural, especially coddling and self-esteem stroking throughout the US educational pipeline, where students get passed forward even if they've failed the current level, and come out the other side with no skills but immense ego. A few years of hard knocks is usually sufficient to get most of them attitude adjusted, but there are always a few lost causes that have to hit rock bottom before they start getting a clue.

 

[Jailer]

I see no issue at all with questioning someones opinion when discussing things on an open forum. But you are correct, there has been a slow gradual increase in the number of users that outright dismiss someones answer when asking for help. When I'm involved in a discussion that ends up like that I just stop responding to the thread and let them figure it out for themselves. Life is too short to waste time debating with a stranger on a discussion forum. Reminds me of the pigeon joke. "Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock all the pieces over and crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway."

A lot of this is cultural, especially coddling and self-esteem stroking throughout the US educational pipeline

This is so true. Unfortunately is happens with a lot of parental units now days too.

 

[Arwen]

This has happened off and on for years.

Like people saying they can't loose data from non-ECC memory, etc... Or questioning ZFS's extreme effort to protect data when all other file systems the user has worked with, have not lost any data, (because they did not know they lost it!). And the old favorite, "got this left over old gaming PC that I want to be my NAS, because YouTube said I could"...

This is why I sometimes refer new users that seem like they would not be able to support their TrueNAS & ZFS server properly, to other NAS software. Partly because that other software is going to be apparently easier for them to use. And partly I don't want to see them here a year or 2 from now complaining they have lost data, and WE, the forum people need to help them get it back. (I will still try to help if I can, and if they are polite about it... but I refuse any blame.)

 

[jgreco]

But why this happens in a forum is something I would really like to understand.

I think it's tied up with a lot of different factors.

One of the hardest things is to overcome preconceived notions and your own overestimation of your awesomeness.

I personally love to learn from the mistakes of others, and I'm aware of my limits. For example, I try to avoid SMB whenever possible. Lots of newbies come here knowing more about it than I do. I spend a lot of time estimating the value of information and predicting where things will go, but I'm not afraid to be wrong about it and can correct. This seems to be something a lot of people have a hard time doing, perhaps because it requires actual critical thinking skills.

From a random forum member's perspective, it can be difficult to know who is talking out their arse vs who is actually knowledgeable about a topic. I tend to avoid commenting on things where I don't have some specific insight that should be helpful, but there are lots of people who offer uninformed ignorant opinions just because some thought rolled into their head. This probably contributes to the resistance of people to listen to the conflicting bits of advice that they get. This is one of the reasons I tend to write up large walls of text and make stickies out of them. A well-written explanation is usually better than a terse answer.

But yes there are people who just really don't want the correct answer.

 

[awasb]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[Arwen]

Looks like we are getting people who think TrueNAS SCALE should act like an application on Linux, and not a NAS appliance that uses the Linux kernel and some userland.

I guess this was to be expected. Just annoying to see people wanting an appliance, then wanting it to be generic Linux that they can do anything they want. Then, when it breaks, they complain, (and seems rudely at times...). As if free software should come with free, fast and someone else's paid support.

 

[jgreco]

free software should come with free, fast and someone else's paid support.

This has always been the problem with the forum model for community support. iX is mostly absent from these forums, and therefore doesn't really appreciate the impact of their decisions and actions. We end up as the front line support, but have really no say or even feedback channel to iX.

and seems rudely at times...

Yeah. I had the pleasure of being told by a 29-year-old that I was "outdated" because I don't advocate the use of DHCP for infrastructure systems. Never mind that I was busy bringing the Internet to the public when he was still a single cell, or that I had actually justified that position.

For some reason I feel like Lee Majors here:

 

[jgreco]

And we're having another uninspired thread about multiple network interfaces on the same network. And I just want to beat my head against a wall.

 

[Patrick M. Hausen]

Alternatively bang their head against a copy of TCP/IP Illustrated ...

 

[jgreco]

against a copy of TCP/IP Illustrated ...

Given that it's a set of three books, I have the capability for a three-sided smash.

The hutch shelf on my office credenza probably says a lot about me. This is not doctored except for mild cleanup.



That is indeed a full set of Stevens. The Emergency Use Only sign is a joke, except probably not the obvious one that comes to mind.

 

[Patrick M. Hausen]

OMG! Are these 5.25" full height hard disks? ST-506?

 

[Elliot Dierksen]

And we're having another uninspired thread about multiple network interfaces on the same network. And I just want to beat my head against a wall.

But just think how good your head will feel when you stop banging it!

 

[danb35]

there has been a slow gradual increase in the number of users that outright dismiss someones answer when asking for help.

That's a big part of why my ignore list is as long as it is. And on this forum software, it's pretty effective (that's one of my gripes with Discourse). Only problem is that morbid curiosity often overrides better judgment, and I "show ignored content" anyway...

 

[jgreco]

OMG! Are these 5.25" full height hard disks? ST-506?

No. I came more from the workstation crowd. The black one is a HP 97560 1.2GB. The middle one is an HP C3010 2GB. The right is a Microp 1936-21 3.6GB. Above it is a WD93044-A 43MB, one of the earliest and definitely ugliest IDE HDD's, then a Quantum ProDrive ELS 100MB that got dropped on a floor and donated to me, and then proceeded to work continuously for more than 15 years, a burnt-up AMD CPU. You can't see the modem stack but there's a Telebit Trailblazer Plus, a Ven-Tel Telebit clone, two Courier 2400's, ... ok this sucks. Lemme see.. well this sucks too, almost as bad as a VAX. (Nothing sucks like a VAX.)



Anyways there's a USR Courier I-Modem (ISDN), in addition to the USR 2400's and Telebits, a USR v.Everything NIB that you can't see in the back, also in the back, the Synertek SYM-1, a 1975-era single board 6502 system which is my oldest(?) surviving relic, a voyager.netTV which is a webTV ripoff clone, also a manual for ETINC's sync serial card from the very early days of FreeBSD when we might use FreeBSD to terminate a T1, the famous UNIX Review mag issue "Goodbye to Berkeley UNIX", and then an Ascend Portmaster 3, USR TotalControl MP/8 8-port modem, a KVM switch, and a Xyplex serial console server.

Eclectic collection of crap. Fun talking points. Too bad I rarely have people in the office. Nature of the business.

While on this track, I always want to point out the most ridiculous bit:




This boring looking picture has two very interesting bits. One, the device under that cheap HP Color LaserJet is an Ascend GRF-400 router. For a year or so around 1998, it was the hottest thing in the ISP business, because it could route OC3 and 100Mbps ethernets at wire speed in silicon, up to 180K(?) route table entries, up to 32 ports of this insanity. That particular unit was about $80K.

At the time, it was handling about half of all Internet traffic for the southeastern part of Wisconsin.

Now it sits powered off as my printer stand. The other one's in the storage locker. Juniper came along and basically killed them. Both the GRF and Juniper have BSD ties in any case.

Under the shredder and wheres-my-garbage-can is a Cisco 4700M, which wasn't the first T1 router here in the region, but it wound up servicing one of the first T1's in the area as an upgrade to an older router. I have two more of those floating around, at least one with the highly coveted 100Mbps ethernet interface module. Severely legacy gear.

"The Grinch's Office -- Where old Internet core gear goes to die"

Finally, there's my "Evolution of Storage" display at the top of this picture. Which I mention because you were interested in the 5.25" HDD.



That in the corner is a Fujitsu M2372K 8" HDD. It's joined by a 5.25", some 3.5" of various thickness, a 2.5", and I thought I had a 1.8" around here somewhere I was going to add to it.

The platters up top are from an IBM DeathStar that stripped all the coating off the glass. I've been working halfheartedly on finding good examples of flash drives to wind up at that tiny microSD card. You can also see the Grinch plushie up there leering at my visitor chairs, his butt is stuffed into a wire grid material that is the backside of my Wall of Glass. The Beastie he's strangling in my profile picture is somewhere around here too.

I'd show you the Wall of Glass but my desk looks like a hurricane hit it.

 

[artlessknave]

cognitive dissonance.

I am right, but their argument makes sense.
since I am right, there must be something wrong with their argument.
since they won't accept that they are obviously wrong, since I am right, they must be the problem
since they are the problem, and can't or wont accept it, and make the needed changes (accepting that I, obviously, am right):

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EEEXXXTTTTEERRRMIIINATE!!!

since many ideological systems teach that this exact pattern, ostracizing that which doesn't conform, is the correct way to hand interactions, it becomes....a norm.
that also combines with the often taught attitude that being determined is better than being accurate, or that acting like you know is better than admitting that you dont know....

 

[danb35]

 

[ChrisRJ]

Given that it's a set of three books, I have the capability for a three-sided smash.

The hutch shelf on my office credenza probably says a lot about me. This is not doctored except for mild cleanup.

View attachment 53644

That is indeed a full set of Stevens. The Emergency Use Only sign is a joke, except probably not the obvious one that comes to mind.

"Routing in the Internet" and "TCP/IP Network Administration" . I am missing "Computer Networks" from Tanenbaum

Thanks, you made my day!

 

[Arwen]

Seems someone is missing the other 2 books from Stevens. I don't have mine handy, they got boxed up in a move, and never un-packed :-(. But, I got rid of a ton of old equipment during my move in 2013.

Arg, and a chassis Multi-Tech MODEM bank. MNP Level 4 or 5 anyone?
(You get a ring of power if you can correctly understand that reference... of course, a certain Grinch is not eligible.)