Single User low power Home Server

[DJ9]

I just looked at the specs on his motherboard and cpu, and it looks like that they both support ECC memory to me.
http://www.asrock.com/server/overview.asp?cat=Memory&Model=Q87WS-DL
http://ark.intel.com/products/78955/Intel-Celeron-Processor-G1820-2M-Cache-2_70-GHz

 

[cyberjock]

How do you know ECC is not working? Both motherboard and CPU claim ECC support. I am looking to find a way to confirm it is functioning.

Ok, you're 1/2 right.

Your CPU supports ECC.. http://ark.intel.com/products/78955/Intel-Celeron-Processor-G1820-2M-Cache-2_70-GHz

Your motherboard though.. it's a ASRock Q87WS-DL. Just from the model number I know it's a q87 chipset. That's a desktop chipset. For Intel, only the server chipsets support ECC. And for Intel, I'm pretty sure all of their server chipsets are C***. In any case, I know that the Q87 is a desktop chipset and without looking at the actual motherboard info I know it'll say non-ECC.

But, you know, here's the link.. and what does it say?

Chipset: - Intel® Q87

Memory:

- 4 x 240-pin DDR3 DIMM slots
- Support up to 32GB, un-buffered DIMM

Conspicously missing is an "ECC" in there. ;)

Anyway, you have NO ECC function despite what you think you have. The fix is to get a motherboard that supports ECC. If you want to keep that CPU the board I'd get is the X10SLM+-F.

This whole fiasco with ECC and non-ECC has been discussed to death in the forums. Feel free to do your own research if you disagree with me.

Now you see why the hardware recommendation threads recommend server grade(which asrock is not). There's more to it than just some brand loyalty. There's secret sauce in there that many people don't know about.

 

[cyberjock]

Doh, didn't see the post from you DJ9. If you read up on Intel chipsets you will learn that desktop chipsets have the ECC functions disabled. Often you can use ECC RAM but the ECC function doesn't work. I have one such board in my living room. This has been discussed to death and you are welcome to read up on this yourself.

Anyway, unless you know a secret to replacing the chipset, you're stuck with getting a new motherboard.

 

[brw02005]

Wow you are full of yourself. You didn't even bother looking it up. According to memtest ECC is working just fine as I can toggle it on and off during the check. It is not detected with dmidecode. Probably the lovely newer UEFI bios so I will have to check bios log for errors.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157415
http://www.asrock.com/server/overview.asp?cat=Memory&Model=Q87WS-DL

You can also look it up on the AsRock website that the suggested ram is ECC. He is right that this is the only Q87 I've seen that claims to support it. Anybody know any other way to test it? I really would like to not be wrong about this.

 

[cyberjock]

Yeah.. there's a thread somewhere where we went into excruciating detail on this. Very dishonest companies list ECC RAM which gives the illusion that ECC actually works. The biggest problem is that ECC is so intertwined with the hardware that it's very difficult to determine:

1. If ECC RAM is installed.
2. If ECC RAM is actually functioning with the ECC RAM feature.

Often, but not always you can easily determine if you are using ECC RAM by obtaining SPD data from the RAM sticks themselves. But, some boards won't let the OS obtain this info, or the otherwise garble it. So it's not 100%.

Often, but not always, the ECC feature can be verified to be on or off. The problem with this is that there is no foolproof way that works for all chipsets across all generations. Some systems the dmidecode is the best and only reliable way, for others dmidecode doesn't work at all.

The bottom line is that the only 100% sure-fire way to know you are using ECC RAM is to use hardware that is documented in the chipset, the CPU, and the RAM to have ECC. Some CPUs that Intel makes don't say that ECC is or isn't supported, and some people have claimed to use ECC RAM. While this is fine and dandy it doesn't prove that the ECC function is actually working.

Are you confused? You should be. It's a total disaster. But, if you look at it from a bird's eye view, Intel restricted the ECC RAM feature to their server chips only for a simple reason... they may Intel more money and Intel doesn't want companies buying cheap hardware.

So you might be thinking "Surely AMD has a simpler and easier system, right?" Guess what, you are dead wrong. AMD is so much worse. I tried to read up on AMD and how they do it. And the only way you can even assume ECC RAM will work is if the manufacturer of the motherboard claims it supports ECC. And some people have proven through some rather scary ways that some boards claimed to support ECC but the RAM didn't actually have any ECC protection.

But the general rule around here is to use the Intel ARK unless you know these 3 things from memory:

1. Motherboard chipset is a server chipset.
2. Intel CPU supports ECC(which is all Pentium and Xeon CPUs that are supported on server chipsets)
3. Using ECC RAM(duh).

The concensus is that the chipset actually tells the CPU's on-chip memory controller to enable and use the ECC function. That stuff isn't on your desktop chipset, hence I know you don't really have ECC enabled and functioning.

 

[cyberjock]

And you can tell me I'm full of it. Feel free. I'll laugh all the way to the bank when you finally figure out that I was right. Hopefully you'll be ready to admit you are wrong too. ;)

Oh.. and check out this link.. and try not to fall out of your seat...

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us...hark-bay/4th-generation-core-q87-chipset.html

That C226 chipset they mention.. that's server chipset...

Edit: And before you try to tell me I'm full of it again.. you should realize that I'm basically the master of this whole ECC vs non-ECC thing. I even spent 5 hours writing a thread on it..http://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/ecc-vs-non-ecc-ram-and-zfs.15449/

 

[brw02005]

Well there is one way to prove it. Put some scotch tape on a ram pin and see what happens. That's about what I got. If I fire up memtest it should let me know. Open to other suggestions as this sounds risky.

 

[cyberjock]

Haha.. you know that part where I said " proven through some rather scary ways"... that's exactly what they did, but worse. Instead of using tape(which will make the RAM stick not fit in the slot) they actually cut the connection from the RAM stick pin to the chip. You'll have to do alot of homework because if you cut a power pin instead of a data pin you'll make the stick not POST.

I'd recommend against doing what you are trying to do and just do the research.. there's plenty of threads with enough info to prove that I'm right. And if not I'd think that the ARK and Intel's own admittance that you want the C226 chipset should make it obvious that I'm right.

But, do what you want.. I'm sure you'll grab any information you can to prove you are right since your on a mission to prove your stuff is correct. ;) I already know better, but it'll be a learning experience for you nonetheless. So I don't consider it a waste of time if you actually want to learn something and actually DO learn something.

 

[brw02005]

My money is that cyberjock is right but I would like to know the truth before I demand refund from asrock.

 

[cyberjock]

My money is that cyberjock is right but I would like to know the truth before I demand refund from asrock.

You won't get it. Someone else tried to do it with their manufacturer. I forget which one, but it wasn't ASRock. Their response was something like "We guarantee that the RAM on that list will function in the system. We make no claim on the suitability of ECC RAM for a given board and leave it to the purchaser to determine if the product will work for their intended use."

I wouldn't expect anything different. They're just saying the RAM is compatible. They made no claim it supported ECC functions. And if you look at the RAM type it uses, it doesn't list ECC. That should have been a big red flag.

Don't feel bad, you aren't the first to get duped. And if it makes you feel better, I know there will be some sucker here next week complaining about the same thing.

 

[cyberjock]

In fact, to make things worse, there was a couple of boards that should, for all intents and purposes, supported and used the ECC functionality of RAM. But they were able to prove it didn't. I know it was a manufacturer that doesn't do server-grade stuff like Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, etc. It was a popular brand name for desktop boards, but they don't do server grade. Well, allegedly they actually disabled the ECC function somehow(presumably a BIOS setting), but continued to sell the board with ECC RAM in their listings. You as a purchaser would be none the wiser. This is one reason why we push for Supermicro so much. It would seriously, seriously, hurt their brand if word got out that one of their boards didn't actually use the ECC function in RAM. Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, etc would simply say something like "Our boards are marketed for desktops where ECC isn't as important". Of course, many of us would feel duped. But hey, that's life.

Is this pretty evil? Hell yeah.

Is it happening anyway? Hell yeah.

Is there anything we can do about it? Yep.. don't buy from brands that don't actually sell server-grade stuff.

Now keep in mind that tons of people are drooling over ASRock's Atom boards that allegedly support ECC. For all intents and purposes, it SHOULD support and utilize ECC. But does it really? Who knows. I wouldn't buy or recommend one though. But that's just me. ;)

 

[brw02005]

Ok they figured out that you can use C to cause a memory glitch to trigger ECC. Mine failed. I loaded up Ubuntu off of a USB and ran it off of there. This is known to work with every known version of ECC.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1693051

I explained the situation to NewEgg and they gave me a RMA no quetions asked. I am out $14 for shipping but not the end of the world.

What do you guys think about this one

SUPERMICRO MBD-X10SAE-O

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182831

My crucial ECC ram is not listed as compatible.

 

[Scareh]

thanks for stopping by for explain cyberjock.
I knew about the iozone thingy (as in that few people manage to correctly use/install it) but I didn't know/knew enough about it to comment, and you never know someone actually knows what they are doing.

@brw, if your parts arrive can you measure how much watts you're iddling at?

 

[cyberjock]

brw02005: That ecc_check has been mentioned several times on this forum. That thread also doesn't cause a memory glitch. It actually asks the memory controller to simulate a single-bit error on your RAM. Now for the catch. Remember all that crap I discussed before on how some stuff doesn't work on AMD, some doesn't work on certain Intel chipsets, and you can't really trust much of anything. That test isn't 100% unless your hardware is compatible with the way which that test is carried out. The test itself is only designed to work on like 2-3 generations of Intel chips, beyond that, it won't work for anything. So I don't consider the test you ran to actually be a 100% trustworthy tests, but whatever. Now you see why this ECC thing has been a nightmare for so many users. Most people don't have the engineering experience in computing to know all this crap, and your average "garage" IT guy will never know it.

But, in any case, the fact that you are able to RMA the board and that you have is a good thing.

Any reason you ignored my recommendation above? That motherboard isn't a particularly good choice for a FreeNAS box, and I gave you a particularly good choice..

As for the RAM, there's a chance it won't work. It's very likely to work, but there's always the chance it won't.

 

[brw02005]

Got any suggestions for all SATA3 for 6 ports? I am ok with paying a bit more. I know it don't matter but I plan to have this for a while. I still have a dream of a SSD array some day. I know expansion cards with direct access are a bit rare. I am open to options.

 

[cyberjock]

The IBM M1015 is all SATA3. It's about $100 from ebay, and reflashed to IT mode which is dead easy makes it the BEST card for your money for ZFS.

 

[brw02005]

I was thinking more along the lines of this one
SUPERMICRO MBD-X10SLH-F-O

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182822

Only difference is c226 instead of c224 so 6 sata3 connections. Graphics and lan chips are identical as your suggested. Thank you for pointing out the IBM M1015 in case I ever want expansion. I narrowed my search to ATX which is why I didn't find it to begin with.

 

[cyberjock]

Keep in mind while you are sweating this SATA3 thing... you're still limited to 1Gbps outgoing on your NIC. Even at 10Gb, 3xSATA2 ports are 9Gb/sec. So I think you are worrying about a problem you're not going to ever deal with. Think about where your bottleneck is going to be in perspective. ;)

The motherboards you are looking at are limited to 32GB of RAM. I'd expect that will be a limiting factor long before (whatever is after 10Gb) comes along.

That board you linked, nothing I see bad about it.

 

[Yatti420]

Keep in mind while you are sweating this SATA3 thing... you're still limited to 1Gbps outgoing on your NIC. Even at 10Gb, 3xSATA2 ports are 9Gb/sec. So I think you are worrying about a problem you're not going to ever deal with. Think about where your bottleneck is going to be in perspective. ;)

The motherboards you are looking at are limited to 32GB of RAM. I'd expect that will be a limiting factor long before (whatever is after 10Gb) comes along.

That board you linked, nothing I see bad about it.

Which is why I bought the x9 I have.. I had a gigabyte board for testing previous with Sata3 and sata 2 ports.. USB3 etc.. Didn't see the need to get anything better.. When that time rolls around to upgrade computers/networks should be a much different beast..

 

[brw02005]

Good point, I just thought it was weird having 4 drives on sata III then 2 drives on sata II when for $20 they can all be exactly the same. The sata3 board had higher reviews but yeah I doubt there is much difference. Might just go with it because of the better reviews.