First NAS System

[Bozon]

The board has 8 SATA3 ports. It seems that you've purchased 8 HDDs for your pool so you need to rethink how you're going to boot. An HBA, as you've been discussing above, should work. When looking at how to best use these cards, you might find it easier to use the HBA fanout/breakout cable(s) with your storage drives and only use two of the MB SATA3s for booting.

I only saw 6 for the pool. Where did you get 8 for the pool. I am completely confused now.

 

[SearchEngine27]

The board has 8 SATA3 ports. It seems that you've purchased 8 HDDs for your pool so you need to rethink how you're going to boot. An HBA, as you've been discussing above, should work. When looking at how to best use these cards, you might find it easier to use the HBA fanout/breakout cable(s) with your storage drives and only use two of the MB SATA3s for booting.

I guess I'm not sure why one way over the other. In other words, instead of x8 HDD SATA on the MOBO, then x2 SATA SDD (for boot drives) on SAS HBA, and vice versa with x8 HDD on all SAS HBA and the x2 SDD boot drives on SATA on the mobo. Is there a benefit to one way versus the other?

I only saw 6 for the pool. Where did you get 8 for the pool. I am completely confused now.

Might be my fault at this point. I haven't gone back and edited my original post. I was reading about expanding NAS later, and people were saying you always want to start with a high number of drives (even with low capacity) because once you setup your drive number for a NAS, you're locked into it (unless you backup, wipe, and redo the entire thing). So I upped my HDD count from x6->x8, just for safety-sake and future-proofing.

 

[Bozon]

I guess I'm not sure why one way over the other. In other words, instead of x8 HDD SATA on the MOBO, then x2 SATA SDD (for boot drives) on SAS HBA, and vice versa with x8 HDD on all SAS HBA and the x2 SDD boot drives on SATA on the mobo. Is there a benefit to one way versus the other?


Might be my fault at this point. I haven't gone back and edited my original post. I was reading about expanding NAS later, and people were saying you always want to start with a high number of drives (even with low capacity) because once you setup your drive number for a NAS, you're locked into it (unless you backup, wipe, and redo the entire thing). So I upped my HDD count from x6->x8, just for safety-sake and future-proofing.

Sure, that seems like a sane thing to do.

Ok, to future proof your machine get one of those very nice SAS cards recommended on other build threads from Ebay. They have already been flashed into HBA IT mode to work for FreeNAS. They are like $42 dollars, so getting any old cheap card doesn't make any sense, based on all of the other money you have already spent. Let me see if I can find a post from someone who knows what they are talking about.

https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/first-freenas-server.69125/page-2#post-495609

Here is thread with a post from an expert specifying a good SAS card. Hopefully someone will post to confirm that this is a good card for you.

Somewhere in the thread this card is mentioned:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-H220-6G...9205-8i-P20-IT-Mode-From-US-Ship/192639052923

Also my OCD says to connect all of the data drives to the SAS controller with the SAS to SATA break out cabled specified in the above thread and then connect the boot drives to the mobo, but FreeNas shouldn't really care.

 

[microserf]

I guess I'm not sure why one way over the other. In other words, instead of x8 HDD SATA on the MOBO, then x2 SATA SDD (for boot drives) on SAS HBA, and vice versa with x8 HDD on all SAS HBA and the x2 SDD boot drives on SATA on the mobo. Is there a benefit to one way versus the other?

It's not a good idea to flash the firmware on an HBA you're booting from.

The LSI 9207-8i (using the SAS2308 I/O controller) is the PCIe 3.0 version of the older, PCIe 2.0 9211-8i. Both are fine for spinning disks. Newer models, like the 9300-8i, use the SAS3008 I/O controller.

You may want to read this:
https://forums.freenas.org/index.ph...o-crossflashing-lsi-9211-hba-and-variants.54/

 

[SearchEngine27]

It's not a good idea to flash the firmware on an HBA you're booting from.

The LSI 9207-8i (using the SAS2308 I/O controller) is the PCIe 3.0 version of the older, PCIe 2.0 9211-8i. Both are fine for spinning disks. Newer models, like the 9300-8i, use the SAS3008 I/O controller.

You may want to read this:
https://forums.freenas.org/index.ph...o-crossflashing-lsi-9211-hba-and-variants.54/

So the guide shows 'how' to flash firmware, which is fine. But I don't understand 'why' you can't boot off a SAS HBA PCI-E card that already has IT firmware flashed on it. Why can I not plug my two SSD drives into the SAS-HBA and my x8 HDD into my MOBO? or if I can do it, why is it better that I plug my x8 HDD into the SAS HBA instead of my MOBO?

 

[microserf]

So the guide shows 'how' to flash firmware, which is fine. But I don't understand 'why' you can't boot off a SAS HBA PCI-E card that already has IT firmware flashed on it. Why can I not plug my two SSD drives into the SAS-HBA and my x8 HDD into my MOBO? or if I can do it, why is it better that I plug my x8 HDD into the SAS HBA instead of my MOBO?

Depending on the age of the HBA, you might be updating the IT firmware in the future. It seems unlikely for the 9207-8i, given the date on the last update, but you never know.

You should be able to boot from a drive attached to the HBA once set in the BIOS. I've never actually considered doing what you suggest outside of a WTF is going on here troubleshooting config. I want the simplest path to my boot device and that doesn't include add-on cards.

 

[SearchEngine27]

You should be able to boot from a drive attached to the HBA once set in the BIOS. I've never actually considered doing what you suggest outside of a WTF is going on here troubleshooting config. I want the simplest path to my boot device and that doesn't include add-on cards.

Well I suppose that's fine. But I guess I was trying to find the best way for my HDDs to talk to the OS. I assumed it was better to put the x2 SDD boot drives on the SAS HBA because those get loaded into RAM after boot and then I assumed they would barely be read from again until an OS restart. Whereas the HDDs talk directly through the MOBO, meaning the HDDs have one less point of failure on the way to servicing data off the NAS. I just assumed putting the HDDs on the PCI-E meant some extra failure points.

 

[Ericloewe]

Do yourself a favor and don't boot from an SAS controller. Yes, it's possible, but it's almost always a needlessly complicated solution.

those get loaded into RAM after boot

That's not true, strictly.

Whereas the HDDs talk directly through the MOBO, meaning the HDDs have one less point of failure on the way to servicing data off the NAS.

If you're that worried, you need multipath. An LSI SAS controller isn't fundamentally different from the PCH SATA controller. Both talk to the CPU via PCIe or something pretending not to be PCIe (8x for LSI, 4x shared with basically everything else for the PCH), so it's a different path, but not a longer one.

 

[SearchEngine27]

Do yourself a favor and don't boot from an SAS controller. Yes, it's possible, but it's almost always a needlessly complicated solution.

If you're that worried, you need multipath. An LSI SAS controller isn't fundamentally different from the PCH SATA controller. Both talk to the CPU via PCIe or something pretending not to be PCIe (8x for LSI, 4x shared with basically everything else for the PCH), so it's a different path, but not a longer one.

I don't know that I am or am not that worried. I just know some people are saying don't boot from SAS HBA, and I don't know why, and now you're also saying do not boot from a SAS HBA because it's needlessly complicated. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to set all this up, and right now I don't know which way is better. Google isn't telling me much about boot drives from SAS HBA (only setting up NAS disks on it), so this is my resource on the boot disk from SAS HBA topic, unfortunately. I mean, I suppose if needlessly complicated is probably the best way to describe fitting a square in a circle hole (boot drives on a SAS HBA), then maybe it is sufficient to leave it at that. I'm just trying to be sure before I do something I'll regret is all

 

[Ericloewe]

Thing is, you get literally zero advantages out of booting from an HBA over PCH SATA. Negative advantages compared to booting from NVMe.

To boot from the HBA, you need the correct BIOS and/or UEFI extension ROM flashed to the controller. Then you either tell the BIOS to boot from the card and configure the card to boot from a certain disk, or you tell UEFI to boot from a certain disk attached to the card (the UEFI extension ROM loads a UEFI driver for the controller), if you configured everything correctly. And then you pray that your system firmware actually respects the boot priorities you set.

 

[Bozon]

...Google isn't telling me much about boot drives from SAS HBA (only setting up NAS disks on it)...

This is pretty much the internets way of telling you not to do something. If you can't find much information on it, it's probably because it isn't a good idea. Try looking up video's of rolling manhole covers, for example. Manhole covers weigh 250 lbs, and are not balanced so rolling them isn't a good idea (even though this is an oft stated reason for why they are round.) This is not to say, of course, that bad information is not on the internet.

https://xkcd.com/386/

 

[SearchEngine27]

Noted on the SAS HBA. 8-breakout cable to SAS HBA it is, with x2 SSD boot drive going to MOBO. (I think with this SAS HBA HP H220 6Gbps SAS PCI-E 3.0 HBA LSI 9205-8i P20 IT)

OK now I'm back to cases. I have most of my hardware in hand, and now it seems that the case won't fit the MOBO. That's my fault. I had a case picked out, somebody else suggested a different case, and I just assumed that by virtue of them suggesting it that it was a good fit. I definitely should have checked it before buying because it isn't even close to the right fit.

So now I'm looking at cases again. It's embarrassing to even ask, but I'm having a heck of a time trying to figure out what kind of case to get. I eventually gave up on trying to get standalone/desktop cases and I'm looking at server chassis now. But the issue I'm having is trying to pair one that's not awful against a 4-post server rack. I must be simple, because it seems like all the racks are a set width, but some of the server chassis I'm looking at are smaller than the posts are apart.

I keep coming back to Rosewill 4U Server Chassis/Server Case/Rackmount Case, Metal Rack Mount Computer Case with 8 Bays & 7 Fans Pre-Installed (RSV-L4000) because it's cheap, has space, is 4U as to leave ample height for the SAS HBA (which I still have to figure what kind of SAS HBA to buy for that), as well as space for air circulation to keep everything plenty cool with the stock fans.

BUT then I go to look at server racks. I don't want anything big - the most I'll likely ever have in the rack, is maybe a surge protector PSU backup sort of deal, plus this NAS. I seriously doubt I'll ever have anything else in it. But in either case, a 12U rack leaves room anyway just in case I'm wrong, since that's about as small as you get without mounting it to a wall or hoping it doesn't teeter over (which would be a 2-post. Which I don't want to do, so a 4-post rack is where I'm looking). So I look at StarTech.com 12U Adjustable Depth Open Frame 4 Post Server Rack with Casters/Levelers and Cable Management Hooks 4POSTRACK12U Black, but the dimensions of the rack seem to imply it won't fit the server chassis - in fact, it won't fit most chassis I've looked at. Yes, it is adjustable, but this server rack seems to adjust in terms of depth, but not in terms of width - meaning I don't see how a 16.8" server chassis would fit in any rack if it can't fit even in an adjustable server rack (Amazon is throwing out dimensions of 14.76"W, and somebody else claims it's 19", either way I don't see this chassis fitting). I don't want to order another case (in this case chassis+rack) without understanding that the chassis will fit the rack.

I guess what I should be asking instead, is what kinds of chassis+racks are people using for ATX boards? I'm half inclined to just go back to the original case I had originally picked out (Silverstone Technology CS380B Silverstone DIY ATX NAS Storage Case with Hot Swap Cases) just to be done with it and move on to the SAS HBA and setting up the NAS finally, but seeing as it's the only tower case for this sort of job, I'm inclined to think it's not a popular choice for the 10-bay-NAS-crowd, and I'm assuming that's the case for a reason.

 

[rvassar]

Since I wanted to stay with a tower format, I actually went with a gaming tower case. Cooler Master HAF 912, which at the time was clearanced at around $60. Tons of air flow... It has a removable drive cage for long GPU's. Since I don't have a GPU, it affords me room for 6 internal disks sitting in front of 120mm fans, plus 2 x 2.5 inch boot devices, and 4 x 5-1/4 bays. It's not rack mount easy to replace a disk, but it's not difficult either. I have a couple hot swap cages in two of the 5-1/4 bays, I'm planning on switching to some kind of multiplier drive cage ala Icy Dock at some point...

 

[Bozon]

Noted on the SAS HBA. 8-breakout cable to SAS HBA it is, with x2 SSD boot drive going to MOBO. (I think with this SAS HBA HP H220 6Gbps SAS PCI-E 3.0 HBA LSI 9205-8i P20 IT)

OK now I'm back to cases. I have most of my hardware in hand, and now it seems that the case won't fit the MOBO. That's my fault. I had a case picked out, somebody else suggested a different case, and I just assumed that by virtue of them suggesting it that it was a good fit. I definitely should have checked it before buying because it isn't even close to the right fit.

So now I'm looking at cases again. It's embarrassing to even ask, but I'm having a heck of a time trying to figure out what kind of case to get. I eventually gave up on trying to get standalone/desktop cases and I'm looking at server chassis now. But the issue I'm having is trying to pair one that's not awful against a 4-post server rack. I must be simple, because it seems like all the racks are a set width, but some of the server chassis I'm looking at are smaller than the posts are apart.

I keep coming back to Rosewill 4U Server Chassis/Server Case/Rackmount Case, Metal Rack Mount Computer Case with 8 Bays & 7 Fans Pre-Installed (RSV-L4000) because it's cheap, has space, is 4U as to leave ample height for the SAS HBA (which I still have to figure what kind of SAS HBA to buy for that), as well as space for air circulation to keep everything plenty cool with the stock fans.

BUT then I go to look at server racks. I don't want anything big - the most I'll likely ever have in the rack, is maybe a surge protector PSU backup sort of deal, plus this NAS. I seriously doubt I'll ever have anything else in it. But in either case, a 12U rack leaves room anyway just in case I'm wrong, since that's about as small as you get without mounting it to a wall or hoping it doesn't teeter over (which would be a 2-post. Which I don't want to do, so a 4-post rack is where I'm looking). So I look at StarTech.com 12U Adjustable Depth Open Frame 4 Post Server Rack with Casters/Levelers and Cable Management Hooks 4POSTRACK12U Black, but the dimensions of the rack seem to imply it won't fit the server chassis - in fact, it won't fit most chassis I've looked at. Yes, it is adjustable, but this server rack seems to adjust in terms of depth, but not in terms of width - meaning I don't see how a 16.8" server chassis would fit in any rack if it can't fit even in an adjustable server rack (Amazon is throwing out dimensions of 14.76"W, and somebody else claims it's 19", either way I don't see this chassis fitting). I don't want to order another case (in this case chassis+rack) without understanding that the chassis will fit the rack.

I guess what I should be asking instead, is what kinds of chassis+racks are people using for ATX boards? I'm half inclined to just go back to the original case I had originally picked out (Silverstone Technology CS380B Silverstone DIY ATX NAS Storage Case with Hot Swap Cases) just to be done with it and move on to the SAS HBA and setting up the NAS finally, but seeing as it's the only tower case for this sort of job, I'm inclined to think it's not a popular choice for the 10-bay-NAS-crowd, and I'm assuming that's the case for a reason.

I like this case: http://www.u-nas.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17640&cat=249&page=1

But I haven't actually started my new build, still using my old freenas server. From what I can tell it is a great case that is awful to build because the space inside is tight. Search the forum for recent builds with this case if you are interested. For the plus and minuses of the case.

I also like your original case choice, it seems like it is good enough, and a lot bigger and easier to build than the u-nas case I am leaning toward.

Also, search this forum for the SAS card above (HP H220 6Gbps SAS PCI-E 3.0 HBA LSI 9205-8i P20 IT), there is some good information on the break out cables etc. that you will need.

If you are thinking about a rack mounted case look at the used Supermicro cases available on Ebay. Again search this forum for some recommendations.

Also, searching this forum for the Silverstone Technology CS380B case doesn't yield bad reviews. The professional rack mount cases are definitely what the cool kids are using, but it looks like enough people like the CS3380B that you should take another look at it, including reading build threads using it.

Ok, I was doing some searching on ebay, and now I have a question about cases. Is this a good deal/case?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro...m=283181634754&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I like the look of it, but I don't really know anything.

 

[SearchEngine27]

Yea I'm just going to go for the CS380B Tower NAS case. Server chassis+rack is just more expensive and a bit more of a headache than I think it's worth for me.

I'm also thinking about the HP H220 6Gbps SAS PCI-E 3.0 HBA LSI 9207-8i P20 instead of the LSI 9205. From how I understand it, the 9205 is PCI-E 2, where the LSI 9207 is PCI-E 3. I also heard that you are basically at a bottleneck outside of the PCI-E anyway, so having the 6Gb/s on PCI-E 2 versus the 12 Gb/s on PCI-E 3 really doesn't make a difference in practice. I'm thinking the LSI 9207 anyway because I'd rather have the growing room if I ever wanted it, since the 9207 is only 30 dollars more. Maybe that makes me a dummy for even thinking that though, since I'm basically going to be financially locked into a setup that won't use that 12 Gb/s at the PCI-E anyway (or at least based on my understanding of how all the hardware, software, and network will work together).

 

[Bozon]

is what kinds of chassis+racks are people using for ATX boards?

I thought the board you got was a microATX. Which should open up more options.

 

[SearchEngine27]

I thought the board you got was a microATX. Which should open up more options.

It is micro ATX. But I would need one with at least 9 bays (8 for HDD, and I think I can convert one 3.5" bay to a bay that can hold two 2.5 SDD...I think). I haven't done a ton of googling since, even before I bought anything, I was just going to go with the Silverstone Technology CS380B anyway, but even with looking for some cases, it just looks like those cases are more marketed towards cheaper gaming systems. Not a lot of drive capacity in those. It's not that I'm looking for a small case, I'm basically going to have this thing in a closet in my basement, so a server rack versus full tower - doesn't matter, nobody will see it. I'm more looking at the CS380B versus a server chassis because it's cheaper and easier to deal with, and CS380B instead of a MicroATX case because those have no capacity for drives.

 

[sremick]

now it seems that the case won't fit the MOBO. That's my fault. I had a case picked out, somebody else suggested a different case, and I just assumed that by virtue of them suggesting it that it was a good fit. I definitely should have checked it before buying because it isn't even close to the right fit.

Sorry. When I said in my post "Then you're not limited by motherboards with 8 built-in SATA connectors" the point I was trying to make was to start with the case I suggested, then revisit your motherboard choices since the alternate case opened up more possibilities. Was not trying to suggest that it would work with the motherboard you had already said you were looking at.

 

[CraigD]

I use TWO older cases for my freeNAS system, if you can find them cheap used, they are great!

It is good to see someone reading the resource section

Have Fun
PS Cases models listed in signature

 

[SearchEngine27]

Sorry. When I said in my post "Then you're not limited by motherboards with 8 built-in SATA connectors" the point I was trying to make was to start with the case I suggested, then revisit your motherboard choices since the alternate case opened up more possibilities. Was not trying to suggest that it would work with the motherboard you had already said you were looking at.

It's not a huge deal. Inconvenient for me, sure, but like I said, it's my fault for not reading about the case not your fault at all. Other case is in the mail now, and I'm planning to return the first case some time this weekend or Monday. In the long run, really not a significant problem in the long term life span of the NAS. I'll survive lol