economical home storage music production parts list proposal

[ramar]

parts to build a ZFS FreeNAS network attached storage server, parts such as:

Boot:
DESMV-16GD07SC1DC 16GB SATADOM-MV 3ME MLC 2 channel(s) 240MB/s

from link http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd/listcat.html?catid=SATADOM-MV-3ME&prodid=DESMV-32GD06SC1QC

Motherboard:
The Supermicro X9SCM-F

RAM:
16GB of ECC RAM (but not Kingston unless sure of compatibility and that they are what we [the seller and myself] think they are)

PCU:
Pentium G2020

Disk Drives:
6 WD Red disk drives
what kinds of SSD could i use? M.2?

Card:
IBM ServeRAID M1015 (reconfigured)

Power Supply:
1000 watts 80Plus gold

Case:
The fractal design Node 304
Fractal Design Define R4 Cases

i want a safe 50% memory efficiency configuration, what is that called? RAID mirror?
i'd like an easy time replacing or upgrading disks, such as adding one in an empty bay, does that make sense?

i am NOT in a hurry to purchase this, more that i am researching.

before i became interested in NAS, i was going to have a 3 disk (is "drive" a more accurate term as SSD and M.2 drives, because they are not "disks"?) music production computer. 1: Boot, 2: Library (virtual instruments and effects plugins), 3: project. since all of these should be mirrored with ECC memory, should all of these be in the NAS? i was going to have a multi boot computer with Windows10, Mac OS X HS and Ubuntu. then i learned that each OS should have it's own drive, so i thought about building 3 small computers. would it be a good idea to have the 3 boot drives plus mirrors in the same case as the NAS system?

can i/ is there any point to use plexor M.2 drives anywhere in this system?
where would i connect a USB3.0 portable hard drive, or what is a good way to collaborate on projects where i need to remove the data to transport it in Windows, Mac OS X or Linux format? i guess Drop Box would work, but i'd like USB3.0 storage too, so i'd need a USB3.0 card or case perhaps
thanks

 

[wblock]

Use an ordinary SSD instead of the SATADOM unless physical space is restricted. There is no reason to buy a small SSD for this, the consumer 120G versions are fine and usually do not cost much (or any) more.

 

[ramar]

Use an ordinary SSD instead of the SATADOM unless physical space is restricted.

ok, i guess the article that was talking about SATADOM was written way back when SSDs were a lot more expensive. i am glad those prices are coming down

 

[Chris Moore]

ok, i guess the article that was talking about SATADOM was written way back when SSDs were a lot more expensive. i am glad those prices are coming down

Only $22 at NewEgg: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=9SIAAZ65212723

 

[Chris Moore]

what kinds of SSD could i use? M.2?

What is this for?

6 WD Red disk drives

What capacity drives? OR the better question is, how much storage do you need?

1000 watts 80Plus gold

That is a massive amount of power for such a small build...

i want a safe 50% memory efficiency configuration, what is that called? RAID mirror?

Mirrors are not better than RAID-z2 unless you have a need for speed that you didn't discuss.

i'd like an easy time replacing or upgrading disks, such as adding one in an empty bay, does that make sense?

FreeNAS does not (in any way) allow for the addition of a single disk to an existing pool.

i was going to have a multi boot computer with Windows10, Mac OS X HS and Ubuntu. then i learned that each OS should have it's own drive, so i thought about building 3 small computers. would it be a good idea to have the 3 boot drives plus mirrors in the same case as the NAS system?

Only if you are interested in learning about VMWare ESXi... That is not the easy task you that you make it sound.

can i/ is there any point to use plexor M.2 drives anywhere in this system?

Yes, but why would you?

where would i connect a USB3.0 portable hard drive

You wouldn't, that is not what a NAS is for. It is not used like a computer. FreeNAS is an appliance that connects to the network and your computer accesses the NAS (Network Storage Appliance) via the network.
It sounds like you (to do what you are asking) are going to need more powerful components to permit virtualization and high-speed (10GB) networking.
You should research this some more and ask more questions.

Click the "Useful Links" button in my signature and start there.

 

[wblock]

Only $22 at NewEgg: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=9SIAAZ65212723

I would recommend something more mainstream. And larger. Brand-name 120G drives are only double that price.

 

[ramar]

What is this for?

hi, thanks for responding. i will look at your links.
i am building a music production system. i started in Mac OS X and found a digital audio workstation (DAW) that works in windows mac and linux, so thought i'd migrate to linux, but need to be able to use windows and mac on projects still and was asking how to do this on music production forums. they told me to consider NAS.
in order to use another DAW (i have 2) in Linux, i have to use a specific release of Ubuntu and modify the kernel for speed. while there isn't a tremendous load on resources for music production, there is a speed consideration, re latency when recording tracks while listening to reference tracks that are modeling effects (DPS), so hence my question about M.2 memory. i think i need 7 milliseconds max (i am not sure i have the correct units of time) and the less the better. that said M.2 drives may be over kill. anyone wanting to read an article about M.2: https://www.pcworld.com/article/297...dup-tiny-drives-deliver-huge-performance.html but as prices come down on M.2 perhaps at some point the question will be "why not". that said, i am price sensitive, literally every dollar has toll on me, so i would prefer lower cost drives

What capacity drives? OR the better question is, how much storage do you need?

i don't know what capacity, currently everything fits on a 2TB drive so maybe 2TB but i should take a look at how much memory i am using, perhaps tonight. or 4TB? 4TB

what i am wondering, which is probably addressed in you links, is there a reason to have computers that connect to NAS, or if there is a way to put everything, meaning Windows, Mac OS X and Linux drives, into a NAS system. anyhow, i'll read your links and if it's covered, no need to answer. i am supposed be doing something else at the moment, just thought i check in, thanks

 

[ramar]

recapping the drives i need, 3 OS drives, a library drive and a project drive. i probably should mirror them, that would be 10 drives, correct?? oh, one more OS drive for FreeNAS, 12 drives, correct?

 

[Nick2253]

I think there's some confusion here. Typically, a NAS is a completely stand alone appliance. And then your workstation would be it's own separate machine. It sounds like you're trying to combine the two into one. If you want to put everything on one machine, then you need a hypervisor, like ESXi or Proxmox. You can virtualize FreeNAS on a hypervisor, but that's not for the feint of heart. That will also dramatically increase the system requirements for what you are doing.

FreeNAS's boot pool's speed will have little bearing on the transfer speed of your data. If latency is a huge concern for you, and if you must have less than 7ms, you might need to go to SSDs. Even then, I don't know if you can guarantee that kind of latency from a NAS. However, I doubt that kind of latency is actually required for your application (however, I'm no expert in this field, so please take this with a grain of salt).

For your boot pool, if you want to be absolutely safe, you can look into mirroring SSDs. However, you really only need a small SSD; anything more than about 32GB is not really needed, though 120GB seems to be pretty good target for the prices (it doesn't get much cheaper as you get smaller). Otherwise, you can do one SSD or mirrored USB drives.

 

[ramar]

Typically, a NAS is a completely stand alone appliance.

i was thinking of NAS for what i am calling my project drive. i read a page here somewhere about the importance of ECC memory and started to wonder about using that for everything. i thought i was going to build 3 computers, one for each OS as needed and connect through NAS. i would love to reside in Ubuntu with Mixbus and Tracktion DAWs, but i might need some plugins that are not offered in Linux so i am presenting the possibility of needing Windows and or Mac OS X and communication and file sharing with Ubuntu and therefor i am offering up convoluted scenarios and systems. but i have a lot of info to read about, research and wonder about, thanks!

 

[Nick2253]

In order to provide you better help, it would help us tremendously if you could give us a little more detail on your project requirements. FreeNAS may be completely inappropriate for what you're trying to do, but it's difficult to determine with the information you've provided.

I too would have thought you were building multiple separate machines, however, you then started lumping all the OS drives together in the discussion thread about building your FreeNAS server, so it's confusing as to what your actual plan is. We can provide you great help on the FreeNAS front, but it's pretty far outside of our wheelhouse to help you build DAWs.

 

[ramar]

In order to provide you better help, it would help us tremendously if you could give us a little more detail on your project requirements.

thanks, that is new info for me and perhaps it would be better to build either a multi boot or separate computers that connect to NAS. that is what it what it is sounding like from these posts. i didn't want to take it for granted that it was better to build it that way without questioning the possibility of building one crazy computer. i really do not know enough to explain what i need other than i want to understand a little about the different options. one reason i was considering a computer for each OS is because i was thinking about redundancy in case i get stuck in the middle of a project while working in one OS, i would have the option of switching to another computer. also with a small computer i could grab one with an interface and record to an external HD off site. i will read the suggested links and see if i can make sense of what i need to ask. thanks you guys for your questions and helpfulness

 

[Chris Moore]

thanks you guys for your questions and helpfulness

You might want to read through this post:
Build Report: Node 304 + X10SDV-TLN4F [ESXi/FreeNAS AIO]
https://forums.freenas.org/index.ph...node-304-x10sdv-tln4f-esxi-freenas-aio.57116/

The system described is not simple at all and it isn't exactly what you are talking about, but it will give you some idea what you would need to do to get it all into one system.

 

[ramar]

Mirrors are not better than RAID-z2 unless you have a need for speed that you didn't discuss.

i forgot to include this concept, multi track recording (i will usually record one track at a time) audio analog to digital conversion then computer modeling the sound with reverb, echo, doubling etc (known as DSP), conversion from digital back to audio for artist monitoring what they are playing/recording (that they just recorded a millisecond or so earlier, while playing back 20 or so other tracks all with DSP in 7 milliseconds latency. while maybe not bring an expert in digital recording, it is possible to get an intuitive idea of the calculations taking place within those 7 milliseconds. i was working with an artist who was having difficulty performing for recording because the latency was over 7ms, it can really throw them off and make recording a great performance impossible. there are thousands of plugins such as amplifier and speaker distortion emulations and "recording to magnetic tape" simulations which are really popular now, sound wave compressors, some of which "look a head" and anticipate how to compress sound based upon what is coming. as you may have gathered, i can not describe this in more technical terms

isn't RAID-z2 something like 75% or 62.5% storage space efficient where as mirror something like 50%? there is an article here in FreeNAS about this that i took to mean the 50% storage space efficiency is better. i am not agreeing with them and disagreeing with you, because i don't know enough to do so. i trust you could explain the concepts so i can understand.

quote from below the middle of http://doc.freenas.org/11/zfsprimer.html

• A mirror consumes more disk space but generally performs better with small random reads. For better performance, a mirror is strongly favored over any RAIDZ, particularly for large, uncacheable, random read loads

i like to understand the details, so no worries about how far into the weeds you go, weeds are plants that are not in the preferred location of the observer.


quote from Linux forum re latency in audio work in Linux re the Real-Time kernel:
Q:
1. It used to be recommended to install the real-time kernel for audio work on Linux. Is that still recommended/necessary with T6 and more modern Linux distros?
A:
1) I'm on Arch Linux and I just use the normal non-RT kernel.
from: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=420917&start=135

i am going to modify the kernel to RT. at the moment i am still using Mac OS X 10.9.5, as i recall and as i am migrating from here to Ubuntu Linux, i am not going to take a look at the Mac OS X kernel (it amy not be possible in terms of open vs closed source)

i will read the links soon, but i just thought i'd ask about this (speed i didn't discuss and RAID-z2) because it came up. thanks

 

[Zredwire]

isn't RAID-z2 something like 75% or 62.5% storage space efficient where as mirror something like 50%? there is an article here in FreeNAS about this that i took to mean the 50% storage space efficiency is better. i am not agreeing with them and disagreeing with you, because i don't know enough to do so. i trust you could explain the concepts so i can understand.

quote from below the middle of http://doc.freenas.org/11/zfsprimer.html

• A mirror consumes more disk space but generally performs better with small random reads. For better performance, a mirror is strongly favored over any RAIDZ, particularly for large, uncacheable, random read loads

The higher the number the more efficient. Mirror sets are always 50%, but RAIDz2 varies. With 4 disk it is also 50% but the more disk you add to it the more storage efficient it becomes (it always uses 2 disk worth for parity, so 6 disk would be 66%, 8 disk would be 75% efficient, etc).. Mirror pairs are usually faster than RAIDz2 (with equal number of disk) when talking random reads. Mirrors are definitely faster (with equal number of disk) when talking writes (sequential or random). If you don't have a good handle on what throughput and IOPS you need, then you would be safer (performance wise) with Mirror VDEVs than RAIDz2. You must balance your budget with performance.

 

[ramar]

You might want to read through this post:
Build Report: Node 304 + X10SDV-TLN4F [ESXi/FreeNAS AIO]

i scanned through the first page. he is talking about a lot of the same things i am, the three OS platforms, M.2 drives, the number of drives (12 but they would not fit in this case which i was considering too) and the case form factor, fan noise, plus the tip about metal filings from the screws i wouldn't have noticed until it were too late, more than likely. building that does look complex, just getting the parts in place, which i do not worry too much about. what scars me is powering it up knowing it will need lots of tinkering that is way beyond what i am capable of. for some reason i still would like to move forward with this, but i have a lot of learning to do. i'll read through his project to see what he is using it for, if i can get a hint. maybe he lives near by and can help me when i get to that point. i will research this for months before i order any parts. thanks for the link

 

[ramar]

Mirror sets are always 50%, but RAIDz2 varies. With 4 disk it is also 50% but the more disk you add to it

i didn't realize the number of drives could vary, thanks for that. if all i end up using NAS for is the Project "Drive", it is possible i'd only use 2 drives (i call them drives instead of disks, in case they are SSDs). i am not sure about where my Library drives should go, but i have some reading to do.

 

[ramar]

FreeNAS does not (in any way) allow for the addition of a single disk to an existing pool.

https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/citadel-build-plan-and-log.60371/
post number 17:
quote:
My thinking is about having a spare bay for burning in a replacement drive
for a single VDev pool resilver. If I have a two VDev pool, I would want two
extra bays (i.e. 16bay chassis with two 7 drive VDevs).
If you have another machine in which to carry out the burn-in process, then
this is a non-issue of course. I'd rather have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
My thinking is about having a spare bay for burning in a replacement drive
for a single VDev pool resilver. If I have a two VDev pool, I would want two
extra bays (i.e. 16bay chassis with two 7 drive VDevs).
If you have another machine in which to carry out the burn-in process, then
this is a non-issue of course. I'd rather have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
~end quote
post number 10:
quote:
In the case you picked out above (8 drive capacity) your goal of 16TB of usable space suggests the use of seven drives with 4TB capacity giving you a usable capacity in RAIDz2 of 15.74TB.
At the price you linked to in the OP, thats $938. Taking that cost off the top of your budget leaving $1,562.
This will certainly work (as others have already stated).
My suggestion is to begin with a smaller capacity pool and spend a larger portion of your budget on the motherboard, cpu and memory buying more hard drives later as your needs dictate.
~end quote
me: would either of these ideas work? thanks

 

[ramar]

i noticed that Chris Moore has 3 power supplies in his builds, are they all on at the same time? they adjust their output based on power needs, as i under stand it, so they idle mostly, correct? does anyone build their own UPS with car or truck batteries? i built one, but it was just a Power Supply, it didn't automatically disconnect from the grid and turn on. the inverter must have had a poor sign wave simulation because it didn't work on something, i can't remember what, but i could run my desktop at the time. i remember, i had to disable the ground with a 3 to 2 prong adapter to get it to work. i can't believe it figured that out, i must have been clever back then. i didn't have test equipment

 

[ramar]

FreeNAS does not (in any way) allow for the addition of a single disk to an existing pool.

in the same link as in a post above: https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/citadel-build-plan-and-log.60371/ there is a post talking about adding mirrors, such as 3 way mirrors, can they be added after the system is set up and running? ok, reading more carefully, in post number 1 :

• Pools can be expanded with additional vdevs. Vdevs cannot be changed. (Exception: vdevs can be increased by replacing drives with larger capacity ones) (Exception: Can add additional disks to a mirror vdev.)

now i have to find out what a vdev is. lol i'll read all of Chris Moore's helpful links, thanks everyone. can a vdev be an external rack of drives? would motherboard The Supermicro X9SCM-F support this? how would this connect, PCIe? building a second NAS would provide more redundancy than adding a vdev. can a second NAS support an original NAS? how do server farms add or subtract storage from an account?