Building new vs. buying an old server

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taylornate

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Hi all,

I'm looking at setting up my first freeNAS system. It will be for home use and I plan to make good use of plugins such as plex with media transcoding, bittorrent, crashplan backup, etc. I've thoroughly read the hardware recommendations sticky, and have put together a parts list for mid and high-end configurations based on those recommendation. They are about $800 and $1200 respectively, both without memory or discs and built in a used 4U supermicro chassis with SAS2 expanding backplane.

I'm struggling with the idea of building one of these systems when I see what can be had used on ebay. One example being a system with dual 6-core 2.6ghz cpu and 96gb memory for about $1000. There are others to choose from with less cpu and memory for less money, as low as $500. I've asked for clarification on the memory and motherboard for the $1000 system, but all of this sort of system I've come across so far have been with ECC DDR3. I know that the RAID card in most of these will be useless and depending on the motherboard I may need to buy an HBA card.

I think the main catch is the cpu generation, which tends to be westmere or nehalem. In his recommendation thread, cyberjock recommends not using anything older than Sandy Bridge, with the only reason given being power consumption.

So my questions are:
1) Is power consumption such an important factor? This isn't something I've considered in a build before. Is it really going to cost so much more to run that it becomes a bad deal?
2) Could single-threaded performance of these older CPUs be a problem with samba? It would be great (or even overkill) to have 8 or 12 cores to run plugins, but it would defeat the purpose if the main use of serving files suffered.
3) Are there any other caveats that I'm missing or anything else that I haven't considered?

Any and all insight appreciated.

Thanks
 

Mirfster

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Is power consumption such an important factor? This isn't something I've considered in a build before. Is it really going to cost so much more to run that it becomes a bad deal?
I run all WestMere CPUs since I use Dell C2100/FS12-TY Servers. To me it is negligible, but I don't have any hard numbers to provide for comparison. For sure the newer CPUs/Motherboards use less power, but I am happy with my choice. Per Intel ARK on the 5600 Family CPUs, TDP can vary from 40 - 130 watts depending on your choice.

I suppose that power consumption would really be an issue if you were running a lot of Servers and/or you are somewhere that electricity is a lot higher.
Could single-threaded performance of these older CPUs be a problem with samba? It would be great (or even overkill) to have 8 or 12 cores to run plugins, but it would defeat the purpose if the main use of serving files suffered.
While CIFS is single threaded; that is per connection; so basically more cores is a good thing.
Are there any other caveats that I'm missing or anything else that I haven't considered?
  • Noise: While I don't run SuperMicro; you may want to consider the amount of noise it may produce if you are going to be housing the Server at home. As to anything else regarding SuperMicro, I defer to the others who run them.
  • Backplane: Make sure that you get input from others on this to ensure you have the proper backplane (I *believe* the ones you linked do, but defer).
  • You are correct the the LSI 9260 Hardware Raid Controller (shown in the links you provided) are not good; but you may be able to ask the seller to have it replaced with a true HBA and even lower the cost.
  • Do you really need 24 trays right now? That is a lot of drives, but maybe you do or are thinking of it as future proofing..
 

Ericloewe

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You are correct the the LSI 9260 Hardware Raid Controller (shown in the links you provided) are not good; but you may be able to ask the seller to have it replaced with a true HBA and even lower the cost.
If not, flip it on ebay and someone will buy it for more than you'll spend on an HBA.
 

Spearfoot

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Nick2253

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Is power consumption such an important factor? This isn't something I've considered in a build before. Is it really going to cost so much more to run that it becomes a bad deal?

It's hard to estimate exactly how much power an older server will use, but based on my experience with X56xx CPUs, I guesstimate that a dual cpu system would idle around 250W plus your drives (around 3.5W/drive). Contrast that to the brand new dual E5-2670 v3 system we just installed in our datacenter, which idles around 125W with its 8 drives.

It's pretty easy to calculate the power savings. Assume 8 drives, 12.5c/kWh (US Average) and 24/7 operation, you're at: $292 vs $131. That's around $160/year. By buying a used server for $500 less than a new one, you've more than lost your savings by year 5, and you also have to factor the reduced lifetime of the used hardware (you'll probably not get much more than 5 years out of it, while you can get 10+ years from new hardware).

Also, not explicit here is that you may not need the performance of two X56xx CPUs. If your use case requires less beefy hardware, you can potentially save even more power (though probably not more than an additional $10 per year).
 

Linkman

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FYI, one data point - booted up a Dell R710, dual X5670 CPUs, 48 GB RAM (in 4GB sticks), and two 146GB SAS drives. Idles at around 195 - 200 W on the load display of an APC UPS.
 

Spearfoot

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Nick2253

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Where can I do this? :)

I'm assuming you're being facetious, but you can easily buy used servers on eBay for under a hundred dollars. Now, many of those servers aren't really worth the money, but it's really easy to buy a five year old server for around $500 (see the links in the OP), whereas buying a new server of comparable specs would cost you well over $1000.
 
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Spearfoot

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I'm assuming your being facetious, but you can easily buy used servers on eBay for under a hundred dollars. Now, many of those servers aren't really worth the money, but it's really easy to buy a five year old server for around $500 (see the links in the OP), whereas buying a new server of comparable specs would cost you well over $1000.
Well, I may have been a little facetious... and I know all about eBay.

Your statement implies that I can buy a new server for only $500 more than a used one. That's not likely, for roughly equivalent gear. But if you know of a place where I can buy new equipment at those rates, I wanna know where to back up my truck, 'cause I'm gonna buy a truckload of 'em! :)
 

Nick2253

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Well, I may have been a little facetious... and I know all about eBay.

Your statement implies that I can buy a new server for only $500 more than a used one. That's not likely, for roughly equivalent gear. But if you know of a place where I can buy new equipment at those rates, I wanna know where to back up my truck, 'cause I'm gonna buy a truckload of 'em! :)

I gotcha :p I figured you'd heard about eBay, but my humor processor hadn't kicked in yet this morning :oops:
 

Spearfoot

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Another data point: my 'test' system, an X8SIE-LN4F motherboard with X3460 @ 2.8GHz, 24GB RAM, 4 x 2TB HDDs, 2 x SSDs, and IBM M1015 HBA (for full specs, see 'my systems' below) pulls 88-90W when idling.

EDIT: My 'main' FreeNAS system, an X10SL7-F w/ E3-1241v3 @ 3.5GHz, 32GB RAM, 7x2TB HDDs, and 3 x SSDs pulls 104-110W when idling.
 
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Dice

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How inconvenient high power consumption is difficult to discuss beyond personal preferences.
One thing to keep in mind, power consumption does not only translate to $$$ but also to heat. Depending on cooling situation in the selected location for installation, heat dissapation can be a huge PIA.

My measurements on my two systems, excluding drives IIRC:

Skylake:
i3-6100, 48GB, X11-SSL. 9201-16i (17w): ~56W.

Westmere:
2xL5630, 144GB, X8DTE+, 9211-8i (8w), mounted in SCE847, idle with only 3 "midplane fans running" at low speed: ~200w.

I'd happily confess that I underestimated the real world difference of about 4x additioal power drain from the internal components. The heat build up in the, albeit actively ventilated, clothset has turned my hallway to something like a minor sauna/hotspot in the appartment.

However - If heat wasn't included in my rent, I'd not complain for a second.

To wrap up, would I recommend getting a cheap SM server off ebay, in the age of Westmere?
Maybe.
I'd say there are a few selling points which makes such purchases extra valid, compared to getting a new skylake build. Mainly my argument orbits around systems with high count of hdds.

Once past 1 raidz2 vdev, all sorts of problems arise at the same time without residing to heavy ghetto modifications or DIY solutions. Buying a used SM box, solves a lot of those problems elegantly, supporting power and SAS expanders to provide connectivitity to 24 or 36 drives. In such systems, the main hardware is proportionally not as power hungry, once taking drives and expanders into account.
Worst case scenario, I'll use the SM box and replace its intestant with my Skylake setup. Have not yet decided which route to go.
 

taylornate

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Thanks for all the discussion so far. Lots of good input.

To address a few things about my scenario that have come up...

Heat and noise:
This machine will live in my basement. So, it can be louder than if it were on the main floor, but I could still potentially hear it if it's too loud. Being in the basement, I can't imagine heat would be too much of an issue, though i'd like it to stay cool enough down there to age beer.

# of trays:
No, I probably don't need 24 trays. I kind of see that as future-proofing. And for what those supermicro chassis are going for used, I see no reason to get anything smaller.

Power:
From the numbers some of you have posted, this seems like a compelling issue. I haven't completely decided yet, but I'm leaning toward building new, with a used supermicro chassis. I'll have to keep thinking about it.

I'm considering the high-end system recommended in the hardware recommendations sticky...
chassis: SUPERMICRO 846E16-R1200B $475
backplane: BPN-SAS2-846EL1 (included above)
motherboard: Supermicro X9SRH-7F-O $384
cpu: E5-1620 v2 Quad-Core Ivy Bridge EP Processor 3.7GHz $350
boot: innodisk 16gb SATA DOM $30
memory: maybe 16gb to start and go from there?
drives: 2x HGST deskstar NAS 7200RPM that I already bought on sale, which sort of spurred the whole idea of building a nas. Maybe I'll just start with these 2, or maybe I'll buy 2 more.
Total: $1239 + memory and maybe more drives

I just grabbed most of this from that stickied thread. It claims to be updated regularly, but does anyone have any comments pertaining to that? Should I consider anything else, such as skylake or haswell? I thought it odd that skylake wasn't mentioned. It also seems like ivy bridge is getting old.
 

Mirfster

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drives: 2x HGST deskstar NAS 7200RPM that I already bought on sale, which sort of spurred the whole idea of building a nas. Maybe I'll just start with these 2, or maybe I'll buy 2 more.
Funny how these things "snowball" eh? Just wait and see what happens if/when you do have 24 bays and only 4 of the trays filled.... Those poor lonely drives are going to need some friends... ;)

If noise is of concern, make sure to get input from those with SuperMicro systems to chime in.
 

taylornate

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Funny how these things "snowball" eh? Just wait and see what happens if/when you do have 24 bays and only 4 of the trays filled.... Those poor lonely drives are going to need some friends... ;)

Yeah, that... and only 4U filled in a 36U rack...
 

Mirfster

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Yeah, that... and only 4U filled in a 36U rack...
Whoa boy... I know this route all too well... :)

In that case, let me officially welcome you to Hardware Addicts Anonymous...

Better start getting your stories/excuses formulated now... :)
But Honey, We DO need all that "stuff"...
Sweety... Just think how fast things will be...
Dear, trust me you're going to love it...
No worries, I can write all of that off on taxes...
Of course I need a Faraday Cage, this way all of "our" stuff will be protected against Alien EMP attacks.... /sheesh
 

Valdhor

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I have that exact same chassis with 12 x 4TB Seagate NAS drives in a RAIDZ3. The other 12 bays are for my next array with 8TB drives (When they come down to $120 each). I bought 72GB ECC RAM used off of eBay and tested for a month with flying colors.

The only extra item I would recommend is an IBM M1015 HBA card.

For my particular server I have two Xeon 2.54GHz E5400 processors. This is way overkill for my needs (Mac backups with Time Machine, CIFS data share, Plex Media Server, SABNZDB, Sonarr and NextCloud). This box is pretty loud (Even inside an HP 12U rack). I have been considering replacing the five 80mm fans with quieter options (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSxQSAYn0UA and http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=28671.0) but I believe the determining factor will be the screamers in the dual redundant power supplies. I am loath to replace those. I would like your build but mine cost less than half of that. If something dies in the next five years I can look at upgrading.
 

Dice

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It is true some SM psu's really scream. In my box 36bay (forgot partnumber as of now), the whining noise comes from the midplane fans. But the penetrating and excruciating noise that really travels a lot further through furniture and walls emanates from the PSU.
I've read there are replacement PSUs of platinum quality, and particular models that are VASTLY less noisy.
I'm considering replacing my dual psus with a single 2nd hand of better quality.
 

Mirfster

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