Will It Backup FreeNAS?

[PhiloEpisteme]

Hi folks,

I posted recently about a backup scheme, basically comparing a backup FreeNAS box vs SAS enclosure. After my post I did a bit more searching online looking at used parts and put together the following build.

Chassis (used, includes PSUs and backplane): IBM HS-1235T 2U 12 Bay Storage Server
Board (used): Supermicro X9SCM-F, X9SCM-iiF, or X9SCL+-F
NIC (used): Built-in Intel 82574L
CPU (new): Intel Core I3-3250 2cpu, 4 threads, 3.50GHz
Memory (used): 8GB (1DIMM) Crucial DDR3-1600 ECC UDIMM CT102472BD160B
HBA (used): LSI 9207-8i
Storage Pool 1: 1 vdev

vdev-0 (New, Mirrored) = 2xSeagate BarraCuda ST8000DM004 8TB 5400 RPM​

Storage Pool 2:

vdev-0 (New, Mirrored) = 2xSeagate BarraCuda ST8000DM004 8TB 5400 RPM​

Boot pool (new): USB stick

I think I can get the above (minus the drives) for ~$425. This really appeals to me because if this works it is only $225 more than the SAS enclosure I was looking at for backup purposes but has much better expandability and usability.

How suitable is this setup for a backup system? Is it so antiquated that I would expect it to fall over soon?

If I am only backing up at night should I expect those desktop drives to stand up to the task? Especially given that I'll rotate them out off-site every month.

What are other things should I consider here that I may be missing?

I may end up putting a 10Gbps network card in both of my NAS boxes, and if my backups outgrow available space I'd put another HBA in this one as well.

I know that there are much newer and better boards etc out there. My primary interest (other than data security) right now is cost. I didn't skimp too much on my main build but I am looking to cut costs where I can without sacrificing the safety of my data for my backup. This is why I'm looking at older x9 board instead of newer board. If the costs were even a little higher it would push me toward just picking up a $200 SAS enclosure and calling it a day.

 

[Chris Moore]

Chassis (used, includes PSUs and backplane): IBM HS-1235T 2U 12 Bay Storage Server

This is a SAS attached JBOD disk enclosure. It is not designed to be able to mount a standard system board so it can function as a stand-alone server. It is intended to attach to a separate server by external SAS cables, but some of the parts are missing.

If all you are doing is a backup server, you could start with an even older system board like this and update the system board later, if you find you need more performance for some reason:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro...ghz-Hex-Core-48gb-12x-Trays-JBOD/372578440946

Storage Pool 1: 1 vdev
vdev-0 (New, Mirrored) = 2xSeagate BarraCuda ST8000DM004 8TB 5400 RPM
Storage Pool 2:
vdev-0 (New, Mirrored) = 2xSeagate BarraCuda ST8000DM004 8TB 5400 RPM

What is the reason for two separate pools? Is there a reason for mirrors instead of a RAIDz2 of six drives?

Boot pool (new): USB stick

I would suggest a SSD for reliability.

How suitable is this setup for a backup system? Is it so antiquated that I would expect it to fall over soon?

No. You can reasonably expect to get years of service out of these systems. They are a little outdated for use in a "front end" production environemnt but they are perfectly suitable for a backup in the way you have described. I have servers that are still in use on our network that are X8 generation Supermicro systems.

If I am only backing up at night should I expect those desktop drives to stand up to the task? Especially given that I'll rotate them out off-site every month.

The volume of data that the drives will be ingesting is the question. The desktop drives have a lower rating for what they can tolerate. I am running desktop drives in my home server now and expect to easily get five years of use out of them. The set I had before were also desktop drives, that I bought used and they were over five years old before they started to be unreliable, but even then, I had plenty of warning of impending failure so I could replace a drive.

I may end up putting a 10Gbps network card in both of my NAS boxes, and if my backups outgrow available space I'd put another HBA in this one as well.

A single SAS HBA can accommodate 256 drives. There is no need to install a second HBA

You might want to look at these videos that talk about SAS technology so you can understand it better. The man making the videos is using Linux, where FreeNAS is based on BSD Unix, but the SAS adapters and expanders are the same that we are using.

Explaining the IBM SAS-2 expander and how to do 24xHDD setup with only 2-port SAS controller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qccpopxc_Uo&t

How to select SAS cables
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW419HwU7sg&t

He has several very informative videos if you want to have a look.

 

[PhiloEpisteme]

Chris, thanks a lot for your thorough reply. I've already learned a lot from replies like this to mine and others' posts. I certainly feel better about picking up an older board now. Any advice on how to tell if a used board is going to last or if it is on its death bed?

If all you are doing is a backup server, you could start with an even older system board like this and update the system board later, if you find you need more performance for some reason:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro...ghz-Hex-Core-48gb-12x-Trays-JBOD/372578440946

Thanks so much for that recommendation. I'll have a look at that other board for sure. The seller of the other board didn't mention it being unable to take a standard server board. Perhaps that was a bit misleading on their part or just ignorance on mine? I suppose then you're implying I cannot mount an x9 board in that JBOD chassis? Would the PSU even have the appropriate connectors in that case?

What is the reason for two separate pools? Is there a reason for mirrors instead of a RAIDz2 of six drives?

I've got two pools on my main server, one is encrypted the other is not. I'd like to keep that same strategy with my backups. I'd ideally like RAID-Z2 for my backups but with two pools to backup on and off-site the cost of 24 drives is rather high. I figured going with larger drives might be better so they kick the bucket before I have to upgrade them due to exhausted storage space.

No. You can reasonably expect to get years of service out of these systems. They are a little outdated for use in a "front end" production environemnt but they are perfectly suitable for a backup in the way you have described. I have servers that are still in use on our network that are X8 generation Supermicro systems.

This certainly makes me feel a lot better. Even used parts then I should expect a healthy lifetime from? Assuming they were appropriately cleaned and not poorly treated of course.

A single SAS HBA can accommodate 256 drives. There is no need to install a second HBA

I'm aware that a single HBA can support many drives, I suppose I was thinking about cable channel and PCIe bus saturation. Am I correct that an 8e 6Gbs SAS card has a total bandwidth of 32Gbs across the cables and an 8x PCIe 3.0 bus has just under 64Gbs? If so, wouldn't 256 drives capable of ~1.2Gbs each at max easily saturate both the 8x PCIe bus and cable channels? I'll admit, I am quite uneducated here. I've done some research but do not have a good understanding of HDD behavior and throughput profiles such as when to expect max throughput and for how long. Perhaps this is then a bit off-topic for me to expand on. I'm sure I can find useful info in the forums on this topic, no?

He has several very informative videos if you want to have a look.

Thanks for the links. I'll definitely check them out.

 

[PhiloEpisteme]

Bumping with a follow up question. Since my last post I've spent a lot of time looking through different chassis options etc for the backup build. Ideally I'd like a 12-bay chassis so that I can grow into it over time. However, the 2u 12-bay chassis I see are either just JBOD enclosures meant for use with a sas expander and board custom to the chassis or expect a large board with 2cpu sockets. I'm looking at a single-cup socket motherboard such as the Supermicro X9SCM-F.

Are you able to put smaller board such as the Supermicro X9SCM-F into a chassis such as the Supermicro CSE-826BE16-R920LPB? From Supermicro's page it looks like the board is only listed as supporting much larger, 2-socket boards. In general should I expect a chassis like that to take a smaller ATX or µATX board? Or would it require modding the case to add standoffs etc?

As Chris pointed out, there are certainly many completely built options in the X8 and X9 family I could choose from so I can certainly go that route if I don't find a chassis and board combo that I am confident will work in the right price range.

 

[Chris Moore]

Much better value, cost less and has more drive bays, even if you never use the extra drive bays, it still costs less and yes, you can put any ATX board in it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro...addy-SAS836A-REV3-2-2x-1000w-PSU/264185334924

 

[Chris Moore]

Or would it require modding the case to add standoffs etc?

You can use the existing standoffs to secure the board in the case. I did need to remove some of the extra standoffs to ensure they didn't ground out against the bottom of the board. I used some standoffs like this to keep the board from touching where there were not matching mount points in the case:

You can pickup mounting hardware easy:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Mother...ng-Hardware-Washer-Jumper-M3-Kit/271891206713