-
Important Announcement for the TrueNAS Community.
The TrueNAS Community has now been moved. This forum will now become READ-ONLY for historical purposes. Please feel free to join us on the new TrueNAS Community Forums
BUILD Working AMD "prosumer" Build
- Thread starter Urs
- Start date
- Status
^^^
That. On ECC Error there is a log made on FreeNAS, which does end up in an email. ECC can correct single-bit errors and detect multi-bit errors, so single-bit errors are corrected and multi-bit errors halt the system. At least, that's what's supposed to happen. I know it does it on my X9SCM-F board and I know it works on at least one X10. Because Supermicro is very well known for server-grade quality products I have no doubt in my mind that all Supermicro boards work that way. Obviously I can't vouch for other untested brands, but I haven't seen anyone really ask about errors from other manufacturers.
That. On ECC Error there is a log made on FreeNAS, which does end up in an email. ECC can correct single-bit errors and detect multi-bit errors, so single-bit errors are corrected and multi-bit errors halt the system. At least, that's what's supposed to happen. I know it does it on my X9SCM-F board and I know it works on at least one X10. Because Supermicro is very well known for server-grade quality products I have no doubt in my mind that all Supermicro boards work that way. Obviously I can't vouch for other untested brands, but I haven't seen anyone really ask about errors from other manufacturers.
DJABE
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2014
- Messages
- 154
You should make a note that AMD as a 'big' vendor really does not care much about *BSD, not even *NIX systems. Their main track is Micro$oft support. Just as it is Intel's.
Does Intel care something more? No, they just happen to have some better support for a wide range of systems, and once again, how come that such well known and de-facto standard X86 architecture directly impacts software level in a correlation with specific vendor? I doubt.
Today, business are running even on RISC arhitecture (ARM etc).
We're running GNU Linux on IA-64 architecture at work. And we all know how bad IA-64 is for anything but HP-UX.
Personally, I've never had issues with AMD (both prosumer - privately and server grade hardware - as an observer at work place).
Personally, I've had a LOTS of unexplained troubles both with "server grade" Intel (SM) platform and Free/BSD-NAS.
And in the latter scenario even everything should be working excellent out of the box - so not true, I even had to hack BIOS settings in order to boot FreeNAS every time (xHCI).
But here we're not to talk about personal impressions or love/hate stuff, but as a professionals with proven facts.
So, what can get you into trouble with any vendor MIGHT be - the chipset (south bridge since NB is integrated). We've seen Intel boards with bad chipsets (SiS), and we've seen AMD boards with bad chips (SiS, VIA). These days both Intel and AMD as well as MoBo manufactures are smart to use the proven reference design (Intel CPU/NB, and Intel SB; same thing goes for AMD platforms).
NHF, Well, your personal impression has nothing to do with a free speech and forum rules governed by the owners of the website/forum (sorry if you are one of the owners, still nothing changes previous statement).
Have you considered perhaps there might be other forum members willing and able to help with AMD builds and share their experience? I guess not. :)
1. I have tested my system ( CPU: AMD FX-8350, Mainboard: ASUS M5A97-R2.0,RAM: 2x 8GB Kingston DDR3-1600 ECC, (KVR16E11/8)), it does correcting errors! Tested with Memtest86 Pro with ECC error injection.
So we have a prove that certain system do a ecc error correction.
2. My system works with 9.3-M4-e2951c5 (20141104) out of the box! (i havent found the amd poll for that)
So we have a prove that certain system do a ecc error correction.
2. My system works with 9.3-M4-e2951c5 (20141104) out of the box! (i havent found the amd poll for that)
Yep. And let me be clear too..
1. I'm NOT a fan of deleting threads, even if I think they should be. Just look at how many "I virtualized FreeNAS" threads exist. So throwing the "free speech" around is laughable at best. And if you want to know the reality of it, the mods are far less interested in deleting threads than iXsystems employees are. We've had arguments over it. On top of that, there is NO expectation of free speech on a forum, so argue all you want, you've lost that argument before you even made it.
2. If iXsystems isn't going to work particularly hard to make AMD work, do *you* plan to provide software patches to the OS? These are likely patches that will require you to have NDA documents from AMD that they haven't already provided. You going to take care of that for us? I'm guessing not, and I'm talking about code problems that could potentially make FreeNAS unbootable on AMD. This isn't something that can be fixed with a tunable or sysctl or adding an Intel NIC.
3. If you'd look around you'd see that *I* added the AMD build to the recommended builds. Nobody else. So any argument that you want to make about me snuffing out AMD because I hate AMD is bogus and without merit.
Now get off my lawn please. If we're going to not recommend or support AMD, it's not gonna be because "I don't like them". I don't like alot of brands, but I also don't actively delete threads that discuss those brands. I recommend against hardware based on proven track records from prior users in the forum. If that's not official enough feel free to go make your own forum.
The fact that freebsd and thus FreeNAS has problems on AMD systems is unfortunately still not clear on the main FreeNAS website.
Just like the fact that openZFS requires good solid server hardware (which is for me more that just ECC-ram) is still not on the main website.
The same goes for the clear message that FreeNAS is expecting 24/7 uptime for several sanity checks.
A clear warning on the main website seems to me a minimum, unfortunaly the opposite is still on the website. A small piece :
"Every ZFS filesystem is also verified with checksums from top to bottom to ensure data integrity. If inconsistencies are found, parity blocks can be used to repair corrupt data."
This is not true, there are no checksums on the (meta)data in RAM, only on disk(s). (BTW. Not a single metion of ECC-memory on that page.) There's a clear " iXsystems, Inc" copyright message on those pages.
I don't mind anymore if FreeNAS only runs save on very restricted hardware, but iXsystems should make that message very clear on the website.
BTW. Now moved my FreeNAS server to only an additional backup platform. I addmit I had biggerplans and better hopes for FreeNAS..
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2014
- Messages
- 9,554
I think the website is probably maintained by marketing types and serves a different purpose than providing technical details for FreeNAS. The FreeNAS User Guide serves the latter purpose. :)
I don't believe that "marketing types" would keep such liabilities around, there trained not to lie but give the most beatiful view of the truth.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2014
- Messages
- 9,554
I don't understand the nerd-rage. No one is really hiding anything regarding FreeNAS. It actually has a more comprehensive user guide / documentation than almost any OSS project that I can think of. Maybe I've been around the free software world too long, but one of the first things I look for when getting ready to test an OS is look for the hardware compatibility list (I certainly don't rely on one-sentence blurbs on a main website).
That is pretty much it right there. I've talked to the iX marketing guys. The do whatever others say. They can't tell if your 8GB CPU or Xeon E3-1230v2 RAM is good or bad. (yes, the errors were intentional)
They are doing some revamping to make the recommendations on the forum to reflect the same on the website. The reality is that ECC is not "required". It's important to remember what "required" and "recommended" mean.
Required - The system will not function without this. For instance, an x86 CPU is "required".
Recommended - The system should function, but at reduced performance and/or reliability. For example, 1GB of RAM per TB of disk storage is "recommended", but is certainly not "required".
Geeks do not take these comparisons well at all. They view anything that says "required" as merely "recommendations", which is why they need to get with the program on what the words mean and how we use them.
Right now Intel CPUs are "recommended" but not "required". Due to potential hardware incompatibility it is very, very possible that Intel may be "required" very soon. Not because Intel is "better". Not because "we want to stick it to AMD". Entirely because the technology may not be compatible. By compatible I mean FreeNAS may not even boot.
I'll add for the record that if you were to talk to the devs at iXsystems about AMDs they'd laugh at you and say something like "get real hardware" or "I don't need to hear anything you said after you mentioned that you are running AMD". I know this because when I've talked to them about bugs that seemed to be specific to AMD that was the answers they gave. That's the unfortunate reality of AMD's position in the market. AMD and FreeBSD do not have a great cozy relationship. You don't have to like it, you just have to accept it.
@all stop flaming, please, that was not what i wanted!
The important information is:
1. I have tested my system ( CPU: AMD FX-8350, Mainboard: ASUS M5A97-R2.0,RAM: 2x 8GB Kingston DDR3-1600 ECC, (KVR16E11/8)), it does correcting errors! Tested with Memtest86 Pro with ECC error injection.
So we have a prove that certain system do a ecc error correction.
2. My system works with 9.3-M4-e2951c5 (20141104) out of the box, even the onboard nic!
At the moment i am building a ddr3 single bit error dimm...
I checked the freebsd 10&11 information but i havent found anyhting about non working amd, so what is the interesting part?
The important information is:
1. I have tested my system ( CPU: AMD FX-8350, Mainboard: ASUS M5A97-R2.0,RAM: 2x 8GB Kingston DDR3-1600 ECC, (KVR16E11/8)), it does correcting errors! Tested with Memtest86 Pro with ECC error injection.
So we have a prove that certain system do a ecc error correction.
2. My system works with 9.3-M4-e2951c5 (20141104) out of the box, even the onboard nic!
At the moment i am building a ddr3 single bit error dimm...
I checked the freebsd 10&11 information but i havent found anyhting about non working amd, so what is the interesting part?
Last edited:
The info on the website :
----
FreeNAS Recommended Hardware:
64-bit x86 Processor with at least four physical cores
8GB RAM
2GB Flash Drive for installation (use 4GB to be sure it's big enough)
At least two hard drives of the same model and capacity for storage
Wired network port (wireless not supported)
Computer on the same network with a modern web browser (for management)
FreeNAS Minimum Hardware:
64-bit x86 Processor
4GB RAM
2GB Flash Drive for installation (use 4GB to be sure it's big enough)
At least one additional disk for storage.
Wired network port (wireless not supported)
Computer on the same network with a modern web browser (for management)
----
I don't see ECC or intel recommended. but the at least 4 physical cores is a nice one ;-)
For me is required : possible to do the things that are stated, but maybe slow and in a "smaller" use case.
We also don't recommend you use fans, or CPU coolers. Unfortunately things like ECC and Intel are "par for the course". Don't get me wrong, my test machine for FreeNAS didn't have ECC RAM because I didn't know better. Windows Server doesn't recommend ECC RAM either, but if you actually contact Microsoft about it they recommend it almost to the point of requiring it.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2014
- Messages
- 9,554
Even OEMs push for people getting ECC memory in workstations.
See here: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/videos~en/documents~q2.aspx
or HP's FAQ regarding the HP MicroServer:
It's a very small effort to make it clear on the website that FreeNAS is quite restricted on usable hardware and de-facto requires server-class hardware to work safely. I've seen numerous posts where you or others have to warn people that there hardware is problematic for safe use. I remember even a post where you describe a conversation from you with someone that lost his important family photo's from deceased family members and you where unable to help him.
I don't get it why there's no warning on the website, I can't image this wouldn't be done on purpose.
The lack of warning is because the FreeNAS website is handled by iXsystems. They make the decision what goes on the website. I do have a small amount of feedback to provide, but they can overrule me and do what they want because they can.
The forums have a different approach. The problem is that the iXsystems company has virtually nothing to do with the forums. You will find virtually nobody here on the forums in an official capacity except for the user jkh. iXsystems doesn't want to get involved with the forums much, they've tried to hand the forums off to the community in the whole, but nobody wants it. This disconnect between the forums and the corporate entity is not uncommon either. The Owncloud forums seem to have the same problem. :/ I *know* from personal experience that the Lenovo forums have the problem because I got caught up in a situation like that myself there.
Does it suck? Absolutely. Does it add even more confusion? Absolutely. Do I wish it would change? Absolutely.
But the ones that control the website do what they want, and the forum does what it wants.
In short, iXsystems runs a business. I (along with the other admins and such) manage a forum. We don't have the same goals, and we don't have the same plan to get things done. Here in the forums it's common for people to have a system with 16GB of RAM or so. If you call iXsystems for a FreeNAS machine, the smallest amount of RAM you can buy is 48GB. You don't like the price and want to cut it down to 24GB of RAM and you'll get a "sorry, but that's not an option with our hardware".
All this bullshit about going AMD, what LSI card to buy, what RAM to buy, how much RAM to buy, etc is meaningless because iXsystems has already decided what they are going to sell (and what not to sell). If you called iXsystems and said "I want to buy a FreeNAS machine with an AMD processor" the salespeople would probably mute you for a minute while they laughed their asses off at your comment. They wouldn't really, but they won't sell a product "because that's what you want". They sell products that have very specific options for hardware and that is it. Take it or leave it. None of the bickering over what hardware is and isn't supported, minimum requirements, etc is even a remote concern because iXsystem's minimum hardware requirements are far more than 95% of us can support with our motherboard. My own FreeNAS server is maxed out at 32GB of RAM.
The forums have a different approach. The problem is that the iXsystems company has virtually nothing to do with the forums. You will find virtually nobody here on the forums in an official capacity except for the user jkh. iXsystems doesn't want to get involved with the forums much, they've tried to hand the forums off to the community in the whole, but nobody wants it. This disconnect between the forums and the corporate entity is not uncommon either. The Owncloud forums seem to have the same problem. :/ I *know* from personal experience that the Lenovo forums have the problem because I got caught up in a situation like that myself there.
Does it suck? Absolutely. Does it add even more confusion? Absolutely. Do I wish it would change? Absolutely.
But the ones that control the website do what they want, and the forum does what it wants.
In short, iXsystems runs a business. I (along with the other admins and such) manage a forum. We don't have the same goals, and we don't have the same plan to get things done. Here in the forums it's common for people to have a system with 16GB of RAM or so. If you call iXsystems for a FreeNAS machine, the smallest amount of RAM you can buy is 48GB. You don't like the price and want to cut it down to 24GB of RAM and you'll get a "sorry, but that's not an option with our hardware".
All this bullshit about going AMD, what LSI card to buy, what RAM to buy, how much RAM to buy, etc is meaningless because iXsystems has already decided what they are going to sell (and what not to sell). If you called iXsystems and said "I want to buy a FreeNAS machine with an AMD processor" the salespeople would probably mute you for a minute while they laughed their asses off at your comment. They wouldn't really, but they won't sell a product "because that's what you want". They sell products that have very specific options for hardware and that is it. Take it or leave it. None of the bickering over what hardware is and isn't supported, minimum requirements, etc is even a remote concern because iXsystem's minimum hardware requirements are far more than 95% of us can support with our motherboard. My own FreeNAS server is maxed out at 32GB of RAM.
Last edited:
That's sad, very sad. I which you the best with you're efforts.
I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect iX to make assumptions about what may or may not be appropriate for a specific user. There is something to be said for laying out minimums so that people can test and try things. Of course recommended specs are also awesome. However, there are many that fire it up, then start looking into best practices and buy better hardware.
You lose out on a significant number of users if you scare everyone off from the initial touch on a website. Honestly, if the site had said "You must buy server hardware, probably a xeon, with over 8GB and you'll likely want 32GB". I would have punched out immediately, and I would have missed out on a great product. We all benefit by an expanding and active user base.
It's all about balance. From a business perspective I can see both sides of the forum issue. It is too difficult to control message and tone to be useful for marketing without heavy handed moderation. People resent that level of interference so things die. The flip side is when you have excellent resources, as this forum does, the company has to live with any rough edges. Classic.
To bring it back to AMD. I'll let you guys test em, and run em. I'm happy to point out joe's build through 9.2.1.8. It just isn't a bet I can make for myself or clients.
You lose out on a significant number of users if you scare everyone off from the initial touch on a website. Honestly, if the site had said "You must buy server hardware, probably a xeon, with over 8GB and you'll likely want 32GB". I would have punched out immediately, and I would have missed out on a great product. We all benefit by an expanding and active user base.
It's all about balance. From a business perspective I can see both sides of the forum issue. It is too difficult to control message and tone to be useful for marketing without heavy handed moderation. People resent that level of interference so things die. The flip side is when you have excellent resources, as this forum does, the company has to live with any rough edges. Classic.
To bring it back to AMD. I'll let you guys test em, and run em. I'm happy to point out joe's build through 9.2.1.8. It just isn't a bet I can make for myself or clients.
- Status
