Why I don't like this forum

[MarcusBay]

When it comes to building your first NAS system, it's normal for newcomers to face challenges, especially with hardware selection. The TrueNAS forum should be a valuable resource for these users, providing essential guidance and support. However, a troubling trend has emerged in the forum's treatment of new users, which is disappointing and counterproductive.

One issue is that new users often struggle to find the "recommended hardware list" on the forum. This leads to repetitive questions from newbies seeking advice on their first NAS build. But the real problem lies in the response of experienced TrueNAS users, who often appear snappy and rude. While it's understandable that answering the same questions repeatedly can be tiresome, the dismissive attitude is unhelpful and unwelcoming.

Insisting on predefined hardware and constantly referring to it may not be the most productive approach. There is a significant difference between a NAS system intended for a productive environment and one for a home lab. It's important to recognize that new users have varying needs and preferences, and the forum should be a space that accommodates and respects these differences.

What the TrueNAS community needs is more patience and understanding from experienced users. Rather than providing curt, one-word responses, they should be calm and willing to guide newcomers through the learning process. Unfortunately, this negative tone has become a recurring theme in many forum posts, which not only deters new users and tarnishes the TrueNAS system's reputation.

TrueNAS is an exciting platform with vast potential, and it deserves a community that reflects this. Elitist and arrogant behavior is detrimental to the growth and development of the platform and its user base. The forum should be a supportive, inclusive environment where users of all experience levels can share knowledge and learn from one another. By fostering a culture of mutual respect and understanding, the TrueNAS forum can become a truly valuable resource for everyone interested in NAS systems.

 

[Ericloewe]

Insisting on predefined hardware and constantly referring to it may not be the most productive approach.

I must fundamentally disagree. If users seek recommendations, an important part of the answer must be a set of examples. In fact, that's often a new user's second question after they're told in more abstract terms what to buy.

It's important to recognize that new users have varying needs and preferences, and the forum should be a space that accommodates and respects these differences.

I'm all ears when it comes to improving the recommendations, but the keyword is "recommendation". I cannot - and I speak for myself as the guy who maintains the Hardware Recommendations Guide - and will not recommend something that I'm not confident in, much less know to be troublesome.
So, if you have any specific feedback, please add it to the discussion threads for those resources, since that's the best place for that.

What the TrueNAS community needs is more patience and understanding from experienced users.

This is occasionally said, but it honestly doesn't line up with what I see. Even in the "bad ol' days", the negative reputation was very undeserved, at least since I joined.

Rather than providing curt, one-word responses, they should be calm and willing to guide newcomers through the learning process.

As a forum moderator, I pay attention to this and that's just not a thing, in the sense that one-word responses are very rare and exceedingly rare when devoid of context. As for guiding, well, that's where the Resources come in, because writing the same wall of text 150 times is objectively worse than writing it once and posting a suitable link.
Speaking from my point of view, it makes sense to research first, then ask questions, probably with some rinse and repeat.

Unfortunately, this negative tone has become a recurring theme in many forum posts, which not only deters new users and tarnishes the TrueNAS system's reputation.

There are several interpretations for this:

• "No, you cannot do that" - that's a technical statement, which may or may not be disappointing, but probably less so than finding out the hard way.
• Aggressive messages, insults, etc. - those are moderation issues, please report them.
• Other scenarios I really haven't come across here - we appreciate good-faith reports if something weird pops up.

TrueNAS is an exciting platform with vast potential, and it deserves a community that reflects this. Elitist and arrogant behavior is detrimental to the growth and development of the platform and its user base. The forum should be a supportive, inclusive environment where users of all experience levels can share knowledge and learn from one another. By fostering a culture of mutual respect and understanding, the TrueNAS forum can become a truly valuable resource for everyone interested in NAS systems.

You're not wrong, but this is all very abstract. In equally abstract terms, respect and understanding goes both ways. Questions are more likely to get answered if there's some effort behind them, be it research, a detailed problem statement, whatever. That's not an excuse to be rude, of course, but I think most forum members would agree that it's a lot more fun when the forum is not treated as a Mechanical Turk version of ChatGPT.

One issue is that new users often struggle to find the "recommended hardware list" on the forum.

This is of course very valid criticism. Suggestions are obviously welcome. A related problem is that the Resources section has gotten a bit messy and disorganized, I hope to address that later this month. Still, that would leave the matter of pointing users in the right direction from the get-go.

 

[winnielinnie]

There are several interpretations for this:

• "No, you cannot do that" - that's a technical statement, which may or may not be disappointing, but probably less so than finding out the hard way.
• Aggressive messages, insults, etc. - those are moderation issues, please report them.
• Other scenarios I really haven't come across here - we appreciate good-faith reports if something weird pops up.

It could also be misunderstandings that emerge from something like this:

When a Text Conversation Goes Very Wrong - Key & Peele

Keegan and Jordan misunderstand the tone of each other’s text messages while trying to make plans. (Contains strong language.) About Key & Peele: Key & P...

www.youtube.com

 

[MarcusBay]

It could also be misunderstandings that emerge from something like this:

When a Text Conversation Goes Very Wrong - Key & Peele​

Keegan and Jordan misunderstand the tone of each other’s text messages while trying to make plans. (Contains strong language.) About Key & Peele: Key & P...

www.youtube.com

LOL - That's a good one!

 

[danb35]

However, a troubling trend has emerged in the forum's treatment of new users, which is disappointing and counterproductive.

Surely your lengthy involvement with this forum qualifies you to make such an observation. And it has nothing to do with the fact that your only other posts to this forum were two ill-considered system designs, following the second of which you were pointed to the documents that you didn't seem to put any effort into finding previously.

Here's the thing: just because people want to use whatever other random hardware they feel like, doesn't make it a good idea. And when they, like you, appear to put zero effort into finding out what's known to work well, neither they nor you should be surprised to receive a curt dismissal with a pointer to the relevant docs.

But the real problem lies in the response of experienced TrueNAS users, who often appear snappy and rude.

On the contrary, the real problem lies elsewhere--but at the risk of "appear[ing] snappy and rude," I think I'll refrain from saying where.

 

[jgreco]

Insisting on predefined hardware and constantly referring to it may not be the most productive approach.

Nobody insists on this. I wrote the original hardware suggestions sticky avoiding any predefined hardware and suggesting qualities to look for in the hardware. Selecting hardware is tricky; I often make comparisons to vehicle selections because people who do not understand that their use of an inappropriate system will lead to various issues sometimes can relate to the analogies I use instead. I know you might feel like your RAID controller OUGHT to be able to work in a TrueNAS system, but a decade of practical experience solving the problems that people present here on the forums suggests that the number of acceptable disk attachment strategies that work are very limited -- basically boiling down to LSI HBA IT, Intel PCH SCU, Intel SATA AHCI, or a few other known-good controllers. We don't insist that you have one of these controllers, but we're sure likely to tell you about it when you return to the forums having problems with that RAID controller. That's not our fault that your controller isn't reliable.

There is a significant difference between a NAS system intended for a productive environment and one for a home lab.

There really isn't. The hardware requirements for ZFS are a bit onerous, you need a lot of CPU and a lot of memory compared to that little SoC based Synology you might be comparing it to. In both cases, it turns out that buying used gear is one of the most cost effective ways to build your NAS, even if you might have a production hardware budget that could afford new. The best thing to buy new are drives. Server gear is dirt cheap on the used market, and it turns out that gear that is a year or two old has significantly better compatibility with both FreeBSD and Linux than the latest hottest hardware being hawked by the vendors.

 

[winnielinnie]

There are many things involved with hardware checks and recommendations:

• Responsibility: If a user gives you specific products to buy, they may feel uncomfortable with any liability or responsibility of your purchase (and possible headaches if something goes wrong)
• "Everything looks fine": You're more likely to receive strict warnings like "NO! NOT THAT! AVOID!" if there's an item that is known to break or work poorly with TrueNAS and/or ZFS. If no such item is on your list, then silence or a brief "read these resources" may imply "Looks mostly good to me, but you should still empower yourself with a better overall understanding for long-term sanity."
• No first-hand experience with particular products: There are a million different products out there. I, myself, can only speak to my personal experience of the handful of hardware I've used. It's hard to give a blessing or alternative choice to a hardware list that someone has never used before.
• Something else I might have missed.

My first TrueNAS systems I basically just "went for it" since they were to serve as home archives, with some extra functionalities. Nothing major, nor does it require anything beyond the scope of a home user. (I got lucky that the Western Digital harddrives I purchased were CMR; as this was a time before the "SMR controversy" that forced WD to honestly label their products.)

But in the end, it always comes back full circle: the general rules about what hardware works best is not limited to "this CPU" or "this drive" or "this PSU", but rather "you should be fine as long as your choices fall within certain specifications."

 

[MarcusBay]

Please allow me to make an observation: Understandably, the people who respond to my post are those who comment extensively in this forum and address many questions for advice. In German, there is a saying that I'm not sure exists in English. It goes like this: "Guilty dogs bark."

Over the past few weeks, I have frequented this forum often and read many posts. That's why I've noticed many commentators' harsh and often annoyed tones. And that's the only reason I've written this post. A sort of groupthink has emerged among the "frequent commenters" in this forum, where there's a rigid line of thinking and constant referrals to hardware recommendations. This excludes many interested users.

As many entries here show, there is a middle ground for setting up a good TrueNAS server with semi-professional hardware.

 

[danb35]

* plonk *

 

[Samuel Tai]

@MarcusBay, the experienced members of this forum and moderators have too often been asked to help pick up the pieces when someone's build has gone sideways. Forgive us if we appear testy, but those afflicted often could've avoided their troubles with a little research ahead of time, or just asking "Is this a good idea?" before proceeding with some course of action. Worse, some have irrevocably damaged their systems or data by randomly pushing buttons or following blindly an out-of-date Youtube video/Reddit thread/ChatGPT nonsense, and then rage at us for being the bearer of bad news.

You're free to use whatever hardware for your build as you like, but remember, you're NOT building any run-of-the-mill system, where performance is the primary design choice. (This applies to workstations, gaming PCs, etc.) You're building a server, and the primary design choice here is reliability. Thus the very conservative recommendations for hardware. Stray too far from known good configurations, and you've opted to bear the onus of system integration and reliability testing on your own unique hardware. If you are willing to accept the risks that come with that choice, then by all means proceed. Just realize you've deliberately chosen to ignore the cumulative experience of experienced board members, and they can't help you if your build goes wacky.

 

[awasb]

GitHub - selfteaching/How-To-Ask-Questions-The-Smart-Way

Contribute to selfteaching/How-To-Ask-Questions-The-Smart-Way development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

That ancient Greek apophtegma is a nice one, too:

“Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little.“

 

[MarcusBay]

@MarcusBay, the experienced members of this forum and moderators have too often been asked to help pick up the pieces when someone's build has gone sideways. Forgive us if we appear testy, but those afflicted often could've avoided their troubles with a little research ahead of time, or just asking "Is this a good idea?" before proceeding with some course of action. Worse, some have irrevocably damaged their systems or data by randomly pushing buttons or following blindly an out-of-date Youtube video/Reddit thread/ChatGPT nonsense, and then rage at us for being the bearer of bad news.

You're free to use whatever hardware for your build as you like, but remember, you're NOT building any run-of-the-mill system, where performance is the primary design choice. (This applies to workstations, gaming PCs, etc.) You're building a server, and the primary design choice here is reliability. Thus the very conservative recommendations for hardware. Stray too far from known good configurations, and you've opted to bear the onus of system integration and reliability testing on your own unique hardware. If you are willing to accept the risks that come with that choice, then by all means proceed. Just realize you've deliberately chosen to ignore the cumulative experience of experienced board members, and they can't help you if your build goes wacky.

Thank you for your response. Yes, I agree with you in principle. And I can understand you very well. Thank you for your empathetic and relatable reply. Perhaps there is a middle ground after all? Or maybe we should consider improving the initial information for a new server build? This might help reduce the same recurring inquiries.

My plea: less Stalinism, more free love ;-)

 

[Samuel Tai]

Thank you for your response. Yes, I agree with you in principle. And I can understand you very well. Thank you for your empathetic and relatable reply. Perhaps there is a middle ground after all? Or maybe we should consider improving the initial information for a new server build? This might help reduce the same recurring inquiries.

My plea: less Stalinism, more free love ;-)

A good rule of thumb for hardware is to try to emulate the choices iX themselves made with their Mini systems.
Next is to observe the choices experienced members have used for their own builds, which they've often conveniently tagged in their signatures.
Then, if those aren't enough, look at generic white-box servers, keeping an eye on the official hardware guides:

• Core: https://www.truenas.com/docs/core/gettingstarted/corehardwareguide/
• Scale: https://www.truenas.com/docs/scale/gettingstarted/scalehardwareguide/

 

[jgreco]

Thank you for your response. Yes, I agree with you in principle. And I can understand you very well. Thank you for your empathetic and relatable reply. Perhaps there is a middle ground after all? Or maybe we should consider improving the initial information for a new server build? This might help reduce the same recurring inquiries.

We've had such information posted for about a decade. My original hardware guide didn't actually make many specific suggestions at all, and attempted instead to educate about the whys.

So you want some hardware suggestions.

Mod note: This thread is jgreco's original hardware recommendations guide, from back in the day. General advice still holds, but some specifics have changed. The current Hardware Recommendations Guide can be found in the Resources section, at the following link...

www.truenas.com

Perhaps give that a read and offer your thoughts. I can tell you from firsthand experience that this wasn't really specific enough for some folks, which led to some more specific recommendations in later revisions.

 

[Arwen]

One item that has been occurring in the last 2 years, is a LOT of attention has come to TrueNAS via the SCALE variant. Some people think Linux is the answer to all problems with TrueNAS Core. But, some of those people also think TrueNAS SCALE is a simple Linux distro focused on NAS. Which is quite far from the truth.

I ended up writing a TrueNAS SCALE Intro Resource to help new SCALE users understand what they are getting into. So at times if I have no other comment on their posting, but think the Intro will help, I will suggest they read it, with a link;

Welcome to TrueNAS SCALE - Beginners Intro

Since mid 2021 we have had many new users of TrueNAS wanting to try SCALE. Here are some things that are helpful for new TrueNAS SCALE users to know; SCALE is a specialized & targeted OS based on a Linux distro. However, SCALE is NOT a Linux...

www.truenas.com

It might be considered terse just to say, hey, this might help you, and here is a link. But, we have been making Resources of many topics so we don't have to copy and paste. Or worse, spend tens of minutes writing a custom response, which covers exactly and only what the posting was about. While a Resource helps not just a detail or 2, but covers a whole subject.


We also get people thinking that a simple "Hey, I have a problem, disks don't show up. What can I do?". But, they supply little to no information. So, we give them a canned answer, "Please give us X, Y and Z".

While some people might consider it rude not to make a custom response, we have been getting hundreds of posts from newbies, (aka first or few posters), a month. Over the last 2 years that is probably more than 3,000 newbies asking similar questions over and over again.

I made one less than ideal response early this year, and have since decided that was wrong. Next time, if I can't have my post entirely positive, or at least justifiably "sorry, seems you lost your data / that is wrong / not true", then I will not reply at all.


Last, a LOT, a VERY LOT, of people think that because another NAS vendor uses a cheap, under powered CPU, low amount of memory and cheap Ethernet controller chip, they can do the same with TrueNAS, (SCALE or Core). While it is possible to use ZFS on such hardware, the experience can be such that they then consider TrueNAS a mistake. We try to warn people about the ZFS overhead, which especially occurs during a scrub or disk replacement. But, some forge ahead regardless.

 

[jgreco]

Or worse, spend tens of minutes writing a custom response, which covers exactly and only what the posting was about.

I started writing stickies (the old name for Resources) over ten years ago, because at the time the number of knowledgeable high volume posters was rather minimal and I was finding that there was an overwhelming amount of repetition in the questions posed by users. I decided that I would rather write up comprehensive messages about specific topics and then redirect users to those topics, because this resulted in the users getting a much better answer, even if the answer was not a bespoke message addressing the user's particulars.

Over the years I have condensed these down into the current set of resources I have in the Resources section, plus there are still a few loose posts and stickies rattling around as well, and this has worked pretty well. I am not the only person who has done this, and other resources are targeted at various "common problems" as well. It can be very challenging to keep up with the new posts around here and to answer stuff that really does require a bespoke answer. The resource redirects help make that possible.

 

[Adia113]

I am new to this forum and new to building a nas. I feel like if youre not capable of figuring out those simple things then you really should consider other options. You should also be aware that if you decide to use the hardware that is not recommended you run the risk of having a bad time.

There is an article or post on here somewhere that will sums up what I am saying. They dont want you to lose your data. They literally care about us having the best Truenas build. Then we come here with ones built from old computer parts and then cry when we lose our precious data. They probably have ptsd from watching people lose all their data and crying about it all day. I am building one from old parts and do not use ECC memory. When I told them that they didnt judge me. Instead they answered my questions and gave me some material to read.

More people are getting into this and that means more people are going to run the risk of creating problems for themselves. That will have a negative effect on the community and Truenas. This is not just a fun hobby for everyone. People are putting all their families data on these things and then losing it. People that run businesses are using these and leaving themselves exposed to problems. Its not like we are learning how to make pottery and they are being sticklers about technique. A home lab can contain a lot of sensitive information and it should be taken just a seriously as one used in a productive environment. Unless you dont care at all about your data then do whatever you want.

 

[Ericloewe]

Please allow me to make an observation: Understandably, the people who respond to my post are those who comment extensively in this forum and address many questions for advice. In German, there is a saying that I'm not sure exists in English. It goes like this: "Guilty dogs bark."

Over the past few weeks, I have frequented this forum often and read many posts. That's why I've noticed many commentators' harsh and often annoyed tones. And that's the only reason I've written this post. A sort of groupthink has emerged among the "frequent commenters" in this forum, where there's a rigid line of thinking and constant referrals to hardware recommendations. This excludes many interested users.

As many entries here show, there is a middle ground for setting up a good TrueNAS server with semi-professional hardware.

I think you're bringing up two separate issues that should be addressed separately:

• Rudeness
• What hardware is recommended

The latter is a purely technical discussion and cannot be discussed in purely abstract terms. It is also, by definition, not an inclusion-first subject. The goal of most users here is to get something done with TrueNAS, not to figure out how to make TrueNAS work best on any arbitrary device. Again, very valid discussion, but not in this thread.
The first one is trickier, and I personally disagree with the notion that short answers are bad, which seems to be a major sticking point for some people. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, but distilling communication down to what matters is a practical advantage, as it allows for more answers to more people, or for answers to be given to questions that were found to be less interesting.
Put somewhat differently, forum members aren't here to do consulting. Consultants get paid to pretend their customers' ideas are brilliant, but they could be even more brilliant if done completely differently. Forum members do this for fun, a sense of obligation or whatever, but mostly for free (some iX employees occasionally show up).

They probably have ptsd from watching people lose all their data and crying about it all day. I am building one from old parts and do not use ECC memory. When I told them that they didnt judge me. Instead they answered my questions and gave me some material to read.

This is an important point - perhaps PTSD is a bit strong of a word, but there are plenty of horror stories, like families who almost lost all pictures of the children they'd lost in a fire a few years back. That is part of the culture here, in the sense that the cost of unreliability is seen as too high.

Unless you dont care at all about your data then do whatever you want.

"This is my messing around lab environment, I'm not storing anything valuable" is the phrase that unlocks the forums' crazy terrible ideas section. Metaphorically speaking.

 

[Adia113]

When I first learned about the subject I watched a Youtube video telling me I can take my old parts and build a nas that can do so much cool stuff! I was like what?!?! It can hold my files, it can handle my media and it can do backflips?? So I dug up my old computer parts, bought a case and PSU and put together a server.

Then I opened the manual for the first time and realized the reality. This is not like that Youtube video. This is not just download a program, change a few things and away we go. I realized that this is something very serious and I need to make sure I take my time and do it right. I spent months focusing on the first 34 pages of the manual. No joke, I went off and researched every detail and word I did not understand.

If I went off the Youtube video I would be missing so much. Example, in the video tutorials they do not tell you to do a burn in on your new drives. One user on Youtube talked about this, the rest is in the manual. They did not talk about smart tests at all. I would have never known if I didnt read page 13 in the manual. Also there is a resource floating around on this forum that talks about that. Same with ECC memory, ethernet port types, HBA and SAS. None of that was in the Youtube videos, but it was in the first 34 pages of the manual and in the forum resources.

The reason I say this is because a lot of new people dont do this. They will watch Youtube and get it set up no problem. They will get to the point where all their data is on there and then thats when the problems come. There is a button when creating you pool to encrypt the entire pool. I could not find anywhere that talked about this darn button. The people in Youtube videos creating the pool do not select it. The one or two that tell you to select it dont tell you why. Its so important though!

People are getting bad information and not reading the manual and are coming here and using this place as a dumping ground for bad posts, begging for help. I feel like its going to get worse and worse as more people jump on the nas train. The more experienced users on here also want to be engaged by good content and ideas. They dont come here to babysit us only. We need to meet in the middle.

 

[jgreco]

I feel like its going to get worse and worse as more people jump on the nas train.

Going to? It's been on a downward trend for the last few years. The complexity of TrueNAS is dramatically greater than it once was, with containers and virtualization, and the introduction of a Linux variant has generated additional influx of "Linux! I know that!" users who are frustrated when it turns out that it is not the Linux they know. We had a low point about ten years ago where there was a huge mass of people with AMD APU systems, 2GB or 4GB RAM, and Realtek ethernets who were determined to switch from UFS to ZFS, and there were not enough experienced members on here to guide them. This void led to Cyberjock, who had the time and energy to drag people up to speed. It was considered an unpleasant state of affairs, but did get a lot of people bootstrapped into FreeNAS.

They dont come here to babysit us only.

True. I hang around here because there are people with interests, many of whom can be taught. I get very little out of these forums as far as information pertinent to operating TrueNAS goes, but I'm happy to hang around and share expertise with those who could use some.