Why are people not "downgrading"... ejem... from 8 to 7?

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freeflow

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SOme improvements to the installation process are needed. I tried updating an existing redundant freenas 7.2 to see what the improvements were. The install would not proceed until I had wiped existing partitions off the USB stick. The the full installations would not work, only the embedded. Then when finally installed and setup there were sufficient changes to the ftp aand samba settings that I couldn't work out how to get things unning again. ftp connections were refused and samba shares needed permission to write.
 

jgreco

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People aren't downgrading from 8 to 7 because it's a downgrade. Talk about the self-answering question.

Seriously, though, the 0.7 architecture is a bit of a train wreck for an appliance-type device. I'm in no way intending to be disrespectful to all the effort that was put into it, but it was basically a layer on top of a FreeBSD install. Great way(!) to bootstrap the project and all, but in order for FreeNAS to be taken more seriously as a NAS product, it's got to look less like FreeBSD-with-a-NAS-Control-Panel and more like something that's been designed from the start to treat the managed resources as separate things.

I am *exceedingly* frustrated with some aspects of FreeNAS, but I see the design concepts and I appreciate that they are working very hard to implement things correctly. I *want* a well-designed FreeBSD-based NAS appliance, so I'm willing to help drag the product through the early phases and watch it emerge as a shining star.
 

ProtoSD

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I am *exceedingly* frustrated with some aspects of FreeNAS, but I see the design concepts and I appreciate that they are working very hard to implement things correctly.

I can't say I disagree with you about the exceeding frustration with certain aspects of FreeNAS. Actually I STRONGLY agree. As for working hard to implement things correctly, I don't disagree about the hard work, but it doesn't look like planning or communication have gone into a lot of things and even though I agree about helping to get through the early stages, it just doesn't seem like some things are thought out very well, hence the Exceeding Frustration. On the other hand though, FreeNAS does take a lot of heat for problems that aren't it's fault and are bugs with FreeBSD.

Just my 2.9 cents...
 

jgreco

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Don't be too hard on these guys. In a former life, I did appliance-type hacking on Solaris, and one of the first things you learn is that everything is a hundred times harder than you think it ought to be. Back then, even Sun engineering looked at what we were doing and I'm pretty sure they thought we were crazy. Back then, the goal was to get a SPARCstation 5 clone, with some special additions for appliance use in hospital operating rooms, to boot, reliably, from power-on to having a complex medical monitoring package up and running in less than one minute. That implies a lot of things. Like: You can never block on fsck. For that matter, you can't afford the time for fsck. So you do all sorts of dirty little things like keep all your key filesystems mounted read-only. You also ditch the system's init(8), and code it in C instead, leaving out all the tediously meandering /bin/sh shell scripts, superfluous fluff, and all the other bloat that made a typical SS5 boot to a text login: prompt in like 4 MINUTES. You get to do all the fun stuff like mounting filesystems and configuring network interfaces in your init's C code. We had X11 on-screen something like 32 seconds after power-on, followed by application launch at 40 seconds. Reliably. With many bells and whistles that might remind you of FreeNAS, like alternate boot partitions for upgrades.

If you remember the early FreeBSD variant "PicoBSD"... I took a bunch of the experience and some of the strategies from that Solaris project and made a FreeBSD-on-a-floppy called XKERNEL that booted into X11, a mostly-diskless Xterminal affair. That was actually the basis and inspiration for PicoBSD, or so I'm told. NanoBSD came around and replaced it, perhaps thankfully, since a NanoBSD system is a lot more functional and a lot less stripped down.

But there's one thing that I am *very* confident saying, and it is this:

As the complexity of a system and its services increases, the difficulty of making it work in all likely configurations increases, probably exponentially. We were blessed on Solaris by needing a very straightforward system on hardware that we were manufacturing a mile away. That meant that we didn't have to deal with things like probing around to determine what kind of network interfaces were in the system - we KNEW. We didn't have to worry about different disk controllers or too much abstraction in /etc/fstab; everything was pretty nailed down. That makes building an appliance operating system easy.

But when you have a complex system, like FreeBSD, *decades* of experience are encoded in the system rc scripts. People have run these things in every bizarre configuration you can imagine, and then dozens more that you cannot. And along comes FreeNAS, which discards much of that, in search of rebuilding the OS as an appliance platform. These guys, well, they're not starting from scratch, but it is INSANELY complex to figure out how to make these things do their tricks and do them reliably. Just booting up and making things run in an acceptable order, so that you don't get errors and deadlocks, that's a really big challenge.

I'm hesitant to be overly critical of someone else's design and implementation of an exceedingly complex software system because I know from my own experience that it's *hard* to do. The way I usually tackled it was to build frameworks that would start out with proof-of-concept implementations, then I'd learn what I didn't know and didn't predict, rework things, test again, and then fill out the implementation. Sometimes it'd break again in an unexpected way after something else got built. It's not fun and it's not easy. The workable solutions are sometimes completely counter-intuitive. They're blessed to be working in a script language, which makes development a ton easier, but they're also implementing something that's hideously complex.

I can understand that as a FreeBSD user, it's kind of hard to see that perspective, because the perception of FreeBSD is "it just works." So of course why is it hard to make FreeNAS work too? But I think that's kind of the wrong way to look at it.
 

globus999

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jgreco,

Thank you kindly for taking the time. Let me be clear. At this point, I am not interested in improving FN8. I basically had it. I have been running with this thing for almost 6 months now, on a brand new system and has giving me nothing but grief. I spent over a month fighting with it and trying to make it work. When the developers do not plan, nor communicate, nor even attempt to fix known issues, for example the AHCI controller (IDE / RAID / AHCI) driver problem buy simply closing the ticket as "Invalid" (see http://support.freenas.org/ticket/740) or they disregard the obvious need to perform minimum ZFS memory management OOB or a gazillion other things, I become deeply dis-interested in investing more of my time to improve their bottom line.

You may be right in terms of FN7 being a bolt-on to BSD, however, it worked (which is something that cannot be said about FN8 - not by a long shot). At the end of the day, the User is king. A user does not care how good or bad the underlying architecture may be, but it only cares about functionality (including reliability).

As to FN7 being a "downgrade" to FN8, nominally it is true, however, functioanlly it is an "upgrade" in any sense of the word.

The ultimate reason of my posting is that I want to bail out of FN8 but would like to know if somebody had any previous experience in doing so. Since I don't have a suitable Dev environment, I would like to take this rather cautiously.

As far as I can tell, the easier way to do 8 --> 7 would be to (assuming only ZFS is used):

1 - Export all ZFS structures under FN8
2 - Install FN7 from scratch
3 - Import all ZFS structures under FN7

Clean up: scrub the disks and upgrade to the latest ZFS.

However, it sounds too easy to be truth. What am I missing?
 

William Grzybowski

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When the developers do not plan, nor communicate, nor even attempt to fix known issues, for example the AHCI controller (IDE / RAID / AHCI) driver problem buy simply closing the ticket as "Invalid" (see http://support.freenas.org/ticket/740)

:)
Please take a moment to watch the activity in the development process at http://support.freenas.org/timeline, where you can find out the developers are working hard everyday improving the software and fixing bugs. Then compare that to freenas 0.7 development (which is near to 0 at this point). [0.7 branch vs trunk].

I'm sorry if the freenas developers are not the freeBSD developers of your sata controller and do not dig into the kernel operating system code to fix a bug related to a single sata controller that nobody else has complained about and is job of the operating system developers (freeBSD) and not the appliance devs (freeNAS). Read as: Fill a PR into FreeBSD and not FreeNAS support system.

As far as I can tell, the easier way to do 8 --> 7 would be to (assuming only ZFS is used):

1 - Export all ZFS structures under FN8
2 - Install FN7 from scratch
3 - Import all ZFS structures under FN7

Clean up: scrub the disks and upgrade to the latest ZFS.

However, it sounds too easy to be truth. What am I missing?

Yes, that would be it, if you're using the 0.7.5 experimental build with FreeBSD 9.
Install FN0.7.5
zpool upgrade freenas8pool
Import freenas8pool under GUI

Good luck in your quest.
 

globus999

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William,

Thank you kindly for taking the time. A few brief notes:

1 - True, FN8 activity is higher than FN7, however, FN7 works!, FN8 does not. Working, now, reliably is sufficient.

2 - AHCI controller issue, I am not the only one, not by a long shot. See:

http://forums.freenas.org/showthread.php?5234-Thinking-about-Downgrading-AHCI-Timeouts!
http://forums.freenas.org/showthrea...eenas-kernel-ahcich4-Error-while-READ-LOG-EXT

3 - AHCI controller issue, I don't mind the devs saying that it is a low priority, but, playing dumb and simply dismissing the issue is just contemputuous to an incredible degree. It demonstrates plain arrogance against the people that are helping them lining their pockets. Please remember, FN8 is *FOR PROFIT*.

4 - AHCI controller issue, FN8 people should have gone to FreeBSD 8 long time ago. It is stable. It is much better. It supports a higher level of ZFS. They did it for their "for sale" product, hence, it is doable. So, they have the solutions. They have shown that they can do it, however, they have no interest in doing it for us, the drones. It is not a FreeBSD issue. FreeBSD already solved the problems as demonstrated in FN7. It is purely an FN8 issue.

Very sorry if my frustration percolates, but I am at the end of the rope. When (or more precisely IF) FN8 ever gets to a proper "release" stage (at this point is nothing but "alpha", this is, not all features present and buggy) I may consider coming back. At this point in time I just need a stable system.

If I actually manage to "downgrade", will post for others to peruse the info.

Again, thank you kindly for the reply. It is appreciated.
 

William Grzybowski

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1 - True, FN8 activity is higher than FN7, however, FN7 works!, FN8 does not. Working, now, reliably is sufficient.

It is very relative affirmation. And yes, FN7 overall speaking is more reliable because if has years of development and FN8 was written from scratch for several reasons already pointed out.
Still, there are some features/services that work better on 8 than 7, and vice-versa.


Of course you're not the only one, I didn't mean that, but the reports of such issues are far limited to some very cheap controllers and chipsets that are fairly new (released after freebsd 8.2)

3 - AHCI controller issue, I don't mind the devs saying that it is a low priority, but, playing dumb and simply dismissing the issue is just contemputuous to an incredible degree. It demonstrates plain arrogance against the people that are helping them lining their pockets. Please remember, FN8 is *FOR PROFIT*.

No point here, nobody is ignoring the issue, there are plenty of tickets opened for it, just because your has been closed doesn't mean nobody care for the real root cause of the issue.

4 - AHCI controller issue, FN8 people should have gone to FreeBSD 8 long time ago. It is stable. It is much better. It supports a higher level of ZFS. They did it for their "for sale" product, hence, it is doable. So, they have the solutions. They have shown that they can do it, however, they have no interest in doing it for us, the drones. It is not a FreeBSD issue. FreeBSD already solved the problems as demonstrated in FN7. It is purely an FN8 issue.

I think you meant FreeBSD 9 here? Correct me If I'm wrong.
The solution is not quite simple as you think. FN7 0.7.5 moved to FreeBSD 9 for a experimental stage. ( I hope you have read the disclaimer)
FreeBSD 9 did not get released yet, there are still several bugs to be resolved (check FreeBSD PR list).
Even if it had happened it might be ok to upgrade your home solution to a very recent released software but anyone that does that for living does not do so until a certain degree of testing have been reached.

Very sorry if my frustration percolates, but I am at the end of the rope. When (or more precisely IF) FN8 ever gets to a proper "release" stage (at this point is nothing but "alpha", this is, not all features present and buggy) I may consider coming back. At this point in time I just need a stable system.

Don't be. FreeNAS8+FreeBSD8 might not be the software for your because it is not compatible with your hardware, but please remember it works pretty well with others.
If thats the case and it works for you then there is no problem "downgrading" (as you say), but please be more respectful to the work that people are doing with freenas 8 because they work really hard to make it better every day and it is free after all. (Don't forget anyone is welcome to improve the code and send patches ;)
 

holzmann

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So you all are saying that the AMD 880G NB and AMD SB710 SB are "too new" for FN8?
 

holzmann

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William: If you can recommend a PCIx SATA controller card that is considered to be "reliable" with FN8 then I will use it to replace my onboard controllers.
 

William Grzybowski

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So you all are saying that the AMD 880G NB and AMD SB710 SB are "too new" for FN8?

No, I'm saying they are fairly uncommon chipsets in the FreeBSD world and they had issues at some point. (A quick google about them tells me that)
Which they might have been fixed in the upcomming FreeBSD 9 and possibly 8.3.
A lot of those problems are related to the ahci driver that has been rewritten in 8.x.
 

globus999

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I think I'll wait until FreeNAS 0.7.5 (FreeBSD9Stable with ZFS v28) is released. It has been worked on since October.
Looks *very* juicy and it does not rely on BSD 9 RC x.
 

holzmann

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I think it boils down to either buying a different SATA controller card and trying again with FN8 or go back to FN7.

What do you think of this card?
 

William Grzybowski

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I think it boils down to either buying a different SATA controller card and trying again with FN8 or go back to FN7.

Yes, something like that

What do you think of this card?

No personal opinion here, I know someone that got this card running with freenas I just don't know how well, I would google it a little bit to make sure it works well with freebsd 8.x
 

jgreco

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At this point, I am not interested in improving FN8. I basically had it. I have been running with this thing for almost 6 months now, on a brand new system and has giving me nothing but grief. I spent over a month fighting with it and trying to make it work. When the developers do not plan, nor communicate, nor even attempt to fix known issues, for example the AHCI controller (IDE / RAID / AHCI) driver problem buy simply closing the ticket as "Invalid" (see http://support.freenas.org/ticket/740) or they disregard the obvious need to perform minimum ZFS memory management OOB or a gazillion other things, I become deeply dis-interested in investing more of my time to improve their bottom line.

I hear your frustration, but perhaps you'll consider this:

There are a LOT of problems that to you might seem to be a "problem" with FreeNAS, which are in fact problems with FreeBSD itself, not FreeNAS. There is a large team of people working on FreeBSD and even so it takes a lot of time and effort to cover even a significant subset of the hardware that's commonly available. It would be hopeless and pointless for the FreeNAS developers to go chasing hardware problems. It would be hopeless and pointless for the FreeNAS to try to fix driver bugs. These are things they rely on FreeBSD for, and for a small team of developers, you have to decide where your time and effort is best spent. I propose that it is not well spent trying to fix FreeBSD bugs, which is kind of what most of what you're complaining about appear to be.

I have lobbed a number of tickets at the FreeNAS team for a variety of issues, and many of them are handled right away. Some are not. Some are puzzlingly deferred. I don't blame them, I just use my own experiences as a developer to remind myself that I'm not privy to all the reasoning.

From a sysadmin's perspective, FreeNAS 8 works mostly-great. It implements 95% of the things I want and need. It has some rough edges, which I have watched get polished at a furious pace. That's where the development effort is going. If you're not up to the adventure of running young code, then FreeNAS 8 probably isn't for you. But FreeNAS 7 has its own set of problems.

This is really no different than those of us who pick and choose between our various options for other things. We chose to virtualize under ESXi, but 4.1, not 5.0, for a variety of reasons. We carefully hand-pick hardware for compatibility with VMware's supported drivers, even though there are many attractive options for third-party drivers. The reality is that even today, computing is not a stress-free thing, and you have to be prepared to do your homework and maybe even revisit things when they don't work out the way you want. Nobody's going to criticize you for switching to FreeNAS 7, but you also need to be aware that it is a bit of a dead end, a product nearing the end of its lifecycle.
 

Brand

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it is a bit of a dead end, a product nearing the end of its lifecycle.

I think the main thing to remember is very last thing you said. For some people that is OK for others that are planning for the future it is not.
 

holzmann

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I just got done spending over 48 hours running ESTOOL on my four 1TB Samsung drives: no errors found.
 
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