Looking for improvements on new build

[theEmbark]

Hey guys,

I've been jumping around this site and a few others trying to piece together a NAS that will run well with FreeNAS. I think I am zeroing in on a solution but have some questions and am looking for any improvements you might spot.

First my NAS use:
I use this is my personal recording studio to backup and store and work on files from applications such as Logic in real time. I also have a portion of my NAS dedicated for my family storage and backup. At any given time there might be up to 3 users on at once. My current NAS is 8 bays. It was in Raid 10 but changed it to a JBOD because I needed more storage. I am wanting to go back to Raid 10 the JBOD was just a temp solution.

Space is an issue for me - I'd rather have a tall tower than a rackmount unit. I had been shopping for a rackmount 16 or 24 bay. It's hard to overlook how cheap some of them are on ebay like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SuperMicro-...767325?hash=item56840f10dd:g:LcQAAOSwoudW8zbO

I don't have the horizontal space for the case however. So I've been looking into some tower mods. My thought is to go with a E-ATX case like the CM Storm Stryker starting with 2 of these case mods to add 24 drive bays.

I thought about 3.5" vs 2.5" drives and after some reading I'm not really seeing the downsides to 2.5" drives that you used to see. The failure rates seem to have evened out and if I can get more drives in less space that's gold for me. Assuming I can keep them all cool. Having said that I have also read the 2.5" drives put off less heat.

This case solution would give me 24 bays with the easy ability to go to 36 if I ever needed.

So now the hardware:
For HDD's I'm looking at WD Scorpio Black 320gb drives which seem to go for about $20 a drive

I have 48gb of hynix ecc ddr3 RAM that I will utilize in this build.

For CPU I'm planning on going with the 1366 chipset the bang for the buck is great and I have a bunch laying around. I have 2 matching x5520's that I think will do the job.

For the motherboard I plan on going supermicro:
SUPERMICRO MBD-X8DAH+-F-O
SuperMicro Motherboard X8DTI-F
SuperMicro X8DTE

Most likely one of the three above.

For HBA's I thought about the IBM 1015's.

So here are the questions/discussions I am after:
-So what should or could I do differently?
-2.5" vs 3.5" for NAS - Pro and Cons
-If I can buy a NAS like this off ebay does it make sense to ditch the case and use the mobo and HBA cards? As well as CPU's and cabling. It seems like adding it up just the HBA's in that machine and MOBO come to $250. Is it foolish to do such a thing or not a bad idea to save on expenses?
-Would such HBA's as the AOC-SASLP-MV8 work with FreeNAS?
-Any additional guidance and input is greatly appreciated. This is the first NAS I've built but been in IT for a while just trying to plan this out the best I can before investing.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[Dice]

-So what should or could I do differently?

Im down with your reasoning concerning RAM, and motherboard. CPU will be plenty overkill granted the information provided in this thread. One thing to note is power consumption which translates to heat and to power bills... Shooting for a lower end CPU would cut the power consumption at idle in half. For example L5630. (don't look at TDP, try to find real world measurements.)

The other big thing I recommend doing 'differently' is related to cases. I just recently returned to the newbie-reads (cyberjocks guide) after spending 6 months struggling with a proper chassis solution. The point I took to heart this time was 'the rule #4' (go look ;) ) and the text on differences in upgrading a chassis to suit needs vs getting one that is designed with these aspects in mind. I've done my homework, in spite of being reluctant to get noise rackmounted boxes, I'm heading that direction now. If I could roll back time a couple of months and make different choices, I would've saved myself enough cash to go for 2 weeks vacation.

I read clearly that you've not 'the horisontal space' for a rackmount case, yet I cannot see why the case could not be just put on the side, standing up. There are no problems with the drives orientation, and granted you're getting a quality case - hardware shouldn't be tumbling around anyways.

-2.5" vs 3.5" for NAS - Pro and Cons

Price. Capacity. As of today - 3.5" is the way to go.


Cheers /

 

[danb35]

If you do return to considering the SuperMicro rack chassis, pay close attention to the backplane configuration. This thread has a lot more info that would be very helpful. What you'd really want for dealing with large numbers of drives (I'd say > 12 drives, as an arbitrary number) is a chassis with a SAS2 (or SAS3) expander backplane, which will let you run a single SAS cable from your HBA to the backplane, and control however many drives you have there. Much neater. The chassis you linked has the -TQ backplane, which requires an individual SATA cable for each drive. Very messy. Very messy even with 12 drives (been there, done that), and more so with 24 or more. The expander backplanes are more expensive, but would let you use a single HBA for 24 (or more) drives.

Would such HBA's as the AOC-SASLP-MV8 work with FreeNAS?

That card uses a Marvell controller, and their stuff has a history of not working too well.

2.5" vs 3.5" for NAS - Pro and Cons

@Dice mentioned price and capacity, both of which favor 3.5" drives, and to that I'd add performance, but 2.5s will let you fit more drives into a given space.

 

[Robert Trevellyan]

2.5s will let you fit more drives into a given space.

But to what end? More 2.5" drives doesn't give you higher storage density. The only benefit I see is more vdevs, potentially for higher IOPS, if that's your goal, but as long as you can saturate your network connection that's a non-issue.

 

[Mirfster]

I have two 2.5" 24 bay C2100/FS12-TY systems that I jumped on a while back. Still sitting there waiting for the costs of 2.5" drives to get lower. Will be more than likely used for VM Storage. But, TBH it is the cost per GB of 2.5" drives that currently have those systems "waiting in the wings".

But when I do get them populated my "coolness factor" will definitely go up a couple notches (even if I am still running Westmere...) ;)

 

[theEmbark]

Thank you all for the feedback,

As far as the case, do you think it's a mistake to mod a tower? Verse buying a rack moint and putting it on its side?

I agree that I wish the price of 2.5" drives would go down and 3.5" drives are cheaper and you get more storage. Having said all that there is still a price to pay for having a 2u system vs 4u. So I will have to weigh that consideration a bit more.

Going with a less powerful CPU sounds like a know beainer after you mention power cost etc. I didn't really consider that.

I think at this point the biggest concern is whether these would work http://m.newegg.com/Product/index?itemnumber=N82E16817995115&Keyword=Athena+Power+BP-SAC31225AVL

I'm still leaning towards a tower because the main problem with rackmount systems is the depth and the width. The width you can fix by putting it on its side but the depth is what it is.

Thanks for any additional information and or opinions!
Kevin

 

[Mirfster]

As far as the case, do you think it's a mistake to mod a tower? Verse buying a rack moint and putting it on its side?

Depends on how good the person doing the mod is. I prefer rack-mounts myself (2U) since they are just easier to work with. I have seen some towers that are just as high as a rack-mount is deep. Of course everyone is going to have their opinions, but at the end of the day it is your money so your call. I wouldn't recommend standing a rack-mount on its end though. ;)

 

[theEmbark]

I'd be doing my own mods but not really custom just buying 5.25" internal bay mods. Well within my skill set .

So I'm taking your suggestion under advisement with getting a rack and putting it on its side. But before I pick one verse the other in trying to look at it financially. Which is the better option.

So option A) is full tower build. The great thing about this is I can setup say 8 bays and buy another 8 and another card when I need to expand. I realize it's kind of the same with a rack but from my experience the overall cost of just the rack seems to be high.

So here are the numbers on option A):

$80 - IBM M1015 x 1
$20 - L5630 CPU
$85 - Hynix ecc reg 48gb RAM
$85 - SuperMicro Motherboard X8DTI-F
$40 - Hyper 212 EVO CPU Cooler x 2
$85 - ToughArmor MB996SP-6SB
$140 - Cooler master storm trooper


This build comes to about $540. $140 less if I can repurpose a case I already have. Need to see if it will fit a EATX board. And cost about $3-5 more per drive. This would give me at least 12 drives to start with and the case would expand up to 54 2.5" drives.

So I need some help putting together options b) and c). Being a 16 bay option and a 24 bay option.

If I use the same hardware as above I'm looking at $310 plus the cost of the chassis. Understanding sometimes you can get a chassis/mobo combo etc. so I'm looking for some chassis suggestions. If I can get them closer to cost in my head and on paper then ultimately I may go rackmount after I measure the depth to see if it will fit under my desk.

Thanks again for the help!
Kevin

 

[Mirfster]

I'm old school. All of my severs are Dell C2100/FS12-TY. Not saying this is the right fit for you, but search the forums for C2100 and my name. You will see my take on the particular system.

 

[theEmbark]

Sounds good I will check that out now. I did find this server on eBay. Appealing because it's just going to take up much space assuming I can accommodate the width. For basically $320. Plus $80 for each HBA which I can add as I add drives.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/152096564923

I looked at the backplane from what I could tell it isn't a TQ. It also includes RAM CPUs etc so all I need are drives.

Going to look up your suggestion now and report back.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[danb35]

Nope, it isn't a -TQ; looks like an expander backplane. You should only need a single HBA, and you could probably sell the RAID card for more than the HBA would cost.

 

[theEmbark]

Thanks Dan,

That's definitely good to know. So basically for ~$300 I could just get a rack on its side. Any idea how these are volume wise? That's the other reason I was looking at a tower. Figured I could control the noise a bit.

Thanks again,
Kevin

 

[theEmbark]

I think I will pull the trigger on that - unless anyone has any final words of wisdom? Decent price for the product? Seems decent enough. By the time I sell that Raid card and the one I have on my self I think I will pay for the unit haha.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[SweetAndLow]

The supermicro cases and fans are super loud. You will not want to be in the same room as it. Mine is in my crawl space and I can still hear it through the floor.

I love mine though and would buy it again if I have a proper place to put it.

 

[Mirfster]

My systems all reside in my office with me and I can talk on speaker phone and no one knows. When I saw "All" I mean at least 3-4 fully loaded Servers. Going to put up a thread with my decibel meter to prove it too. Just need to find the time.

 

[theEmbark]

My fear is the noise :/ I assume I could replace fans etc? That should quiet it down a little. Nothing worse that a noisy heatsink.

Mirfster you're talking about your dell servers? I was considering those but do they make a 24 bay version? Or just buy 2 12's? Maybe even a smaller 2.5" version?

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[danb35]

The supermicro cases and fans are super loud.

There's someone here who's mentioned a contrary experience, but I'm afraid I don't recall who. I wouldn't call either my 826 or my 847 "super loud", but they're loud enough that I'd prefer to keep them in an enclosed closet (though thermal considerations won't allow that at this time).

 

[theEmbark]

What is it that makes them loud? I've read the fans in them are super high rpm are there any other factors? Because for the price I'd almost gamble on it if it's just fans. I can always order new fans.

 

[danb35]

Since the fans are the only noise-making components in a chassis, it must necessarily be the fans. But, as I understand it, those fans are necessary in order to keep the system (and particularly the disks) cool. The upside of a rack chassis is that it gives you lots of disks in a relatively small space. The downside is that, in order to cool those disks, you need a lot of airflow at a fairly high pressure, and most consumer-grade fans just don't have the guts for the job.

 

[theEmbark]

Hmmmm this is going to be a hard decision.

I did find this thread on alternate PSUs with quieter fans https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/opinion-is-120-for-a-pws-920p-sq-worth-it.6064/
But finding them for sale isn't easy and at end of the day it ups the build price quite a bit to the point where I wonder if a tower would be quieter?