advice for building NAS

[danzg]

8TB NAS for <$600 - [SOLVED]

Hello!

I am planning to build a home NAS/server. I just want to make sure all the parts work together.

Goals:
- start with 4x2TB drives, but able to expand to 8 drives later.
- use FreeNAS
- use ZFS and RAIDZ
- as QUIET as possible
- minimize power consumption

Notes:
- I would like to keep the cost down ... so thinking to go with AMD...
- Power supply: needs to be enough for 8 drives.
- ZFS recommends 6GB RAM -- can I get away with 4GB?
- Mobo should have at least 4 SATA connections on-board
- Thinking of using Fractal Design Define R3 8-bay case...

I would love to keep it under $600 (with 4x2TB)

Thank you for any advice!

Also -- is it true that FreeNAS does not do ZFS deduplication? Would I need to use Solaris?

 

[kesh]

danzg,

Your spec looks a lot like mine (a few thread down) and Will (aka survive) has given me good guidelines in component selection. I'm no expert in building a server (still in a planning phase of my first one) but $600 budget with 4 2TB drives *and* R3 case seem a bit tight. I suggest you to go visit newegg.com and put together a wishlist that fits your bill, then come back and ask for people's opinions on your parts selections (rather than throwing a dollar figure and ask others to put a system together for you).

You might be able fit everything <$600 if you go with the lowest-end Sempron.

kesh

 

[survive]

Hi danzg,

There's no reason you can't do what you are trying to do, but I think limititng yourself to $600 is going to force you to make some compromises since you already have ~$360 buck allotted to drives.

Here are my thoughts on your goals & notes:

Expanding ZFS is different than what you might expect. You can't add drives to an existing array, but you can add another set of drives to the storage pool. So your initial 4 drives make a "virtual device" that goes into a pool of storage, and later you can make another virtual device and add it to the pool. That's the trick that allows you to make a monster filesystem with ZFS. When you see a 60Tb ZFS filesystem there might be 12 6 disk raidz's behind it, make sense?

Good fans & a good case make for a quiet system. Bigger fans are usually quieter for moving a specific quantity of air. Check out the forums here for loads of good advice:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/

To minimize power consumption check out the Intel Atom boards or the AMD E-350's. There's a good thread here about the E-350's. I tend to prefer them because they have PCI-e slots instead of PCI and you can get them with 6 SATA ports...most (all?) Atoms only come with 4.

PSU: Both the atoms & the E-350 boards don't draw a lot of power, I think with either system you would be hard pressed to even work a 350 watt unit hard. That said, pay for a quality PSU....Antec, Corasir, PC Power & Cooling or SeaSonic are all excellent brands, look for something 89 Plus certified.

RAM: If you are going to use ZFS, pay for enough RAM. Why do you think they recommend 6gigs, better yet why would you want to try to "get by" with 4 gig? 8 gig's of DDR3 is dirt cheap. RAM is key to ZFS performance. One thing to note, I think atom boards might top out at 4 gigs, the E-350's top out at 8...if you get one of those, max it out and be done with it.

Here's the E-350 thread:

http://forums.freenas.org/showthread.php?27-AMD-E-350-Thread-(now-in-new-forum-)

One other thing to consider...the HP Microserver:

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/15351-15351-4237916-4237918-4237917-4248009.html

Looks like it starts at about $300, but you just add 4 drives, 8 gigs of ram and a USB key and you are ready to roll.

Here's the forum thread on it:

http://forums.freenas.org/showthread.php?32-Freenas-8-on-Hp-Microsvr-Nl361

-Will

 

[danzg]

Thanks for all your advice!

I think I've managed to do it for $545 (!) pre-tax&ship, thanks to some rebates that are on until 7/3 and 7/10.

I've put together a wishlist at NewEgg:
8TB NAS – $545

Note that $545 is with 6GB RAM and a Sempron 130.

I'm wondering if I should
- upgrade to 8GB RAM for +$25?
- upgrade CPU to Sempron 140 which has 1MB cache vs 512KB?? (+$8 .. Might as well, right?)


Feedback on this kit would be appreciated.

I hope there are no issues with FreeNAS/ZFS and AMD?

And is that enough power? What if I add 4 more drives down the road?

Also, I'm not 100% on which kind of RAM I need ... helpful fellow at maximumpc recommended "DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666)", but the specs for that mobo say "DDR2 1200(O.C.)/1066/800/667" ... is that compatible?

Thanks!


For anyone interested in the rebate deals:

500W Power Supply for $30 (down from $80) until July 3
ENERMAX Tomahawk ETK500AWT 500W ATX12V V2.2 AirGuard, Speed Guard and Safe Guard Active PFC Power Supply

8TB for $240 until July 10!... amazing!!!
HITACHI Deskstar 5K3000 HDS5C3020ALA632 (0F12117) 2TB 32MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive for $60 (!!!)
(FWIW, I've had good experience with Hitachi's; I believe their HD division was bought by IBM)

 

[kesh]

danzg,

FYI, wishlist link doesn't work. (newegg IMO messed up their current wishlist system)

Also, I'm not 100% on which kind of RAM I need ... helpful fellow at maximumpc recommended "DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666)", but the specs for that mobo say "DDR2 1200(O.C.)/1066/800/667" ... is that compatible?

I can comment on this. (I myself learned this in a hard way just recently) NO, DDR3 is not backward compatible with DDR2. Get a DDR3 MB as large-capacity DDR2 memory is uber expensive.

Kesh

 

[danzg]

@kesh -- thanks! saved me there... going to get a DDR3 mobo.

Here's where I'm at:
Fractal Design Define R3 White ATX Mid Tower Silent PC Computer Case
$110

BIOSTAR TA880GU3+ AM3 AMD 880G SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
$80

ENERMAX Tomahawk ETK500AWT 500W ATX12V V2.2 AirGuard, Speed Guard and Safe Guard Active PFC Power Supply
$30

AMD Sempron 140 Sargas 2.7GHz Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor SDX140HBGQBOX
$38

GeIL Value PLUS 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Desktop Memory Model GVP36GB1333C9TC
$60

HITACHI Deskstar 5K3000 HDS5C3020ALA632 (0F12117) 2TB SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
4x60 = $240


TOTAL = $560


Does that look good?
Does RAM speed matter? ECC? CAS Latency?

Should I get 8GB RAM or is 6 enough? (My friend is running his on 4GB and says it works great.)

Is FreeNAS/ZFS good with AMD?

Thanks!

 

[kesh]

danzg,

As I said before, I cannot comment on how FreeNAS would run on your prospective system as I'm still working on putting mine together, but I can make a couple comments.

* HDDs. I've read in another thread here that it's a good idea for you to mix up hard drives (of same size but of different manufactures & models) to prevent them from going bad at the same time. Or if insisting on getting the same model, order from different venders.

* RAM. ECC cannot be used with your MB. Only server boards would support'em. Also, since you're on a budget, I don't think you need to worry too much about latencies & speed.

* I'm curious to find out how single-core Sempron sticks up with dual-core E-350, running FreeNAS/ZFS.

Oh, I'm pretty impressed that you made everything w/in your budget with R3 case. Good job!

Kesh

p.s., I was surfing around FreeNAS websites today and noticed that the system specs are quite different between FreeNAS7 & FreeNAS8. Do you know if your pal's running 8 (and/or ZFS)?

 

[danzg]

* HDDs. I've read in another thread here that it's a good idea for you to mix up hard drives (of same size but of different manufactures & models) to prevent them from going bad at the same time. Or if insisting on getting the same model, order from different venders.

Probably a good idea; but too late for me. I couldn't pass up the 2TB@$60 deal!

* RAM. ECC cannot be used with your MB. Only server boards would support'em. Also, since you're on a budget, I don't think you need to worry too much about latencies & speed.

Thanks; that saves me another headache!

Oh, I'm pretty impressed that you made everything w/in your budget with R3 case. Good job!

Mainly thanks to the limited time rebates going on at NewEgg...

p.s., I was surfing around FreeNAS websites today and noticed that the system specs are quite different between FreeNAS7 & FreeNAS8. Do you know if your pal's running 8 (and/or ZFS)?

I'll ask him and let him know. He told me he was getting near 200MB/s read speeds. Seems too high to me. Maybe he meant mbps.

 

[headconnect]

yes, upgrade ram.
yes, upgrade cpu.

Both of those things will give you benefit which will have a value to you of more than $33 over the lifetime of your system :)
Otherwise - doesn't look too bad based on your ideas (as a Norwegian I don't really have an incentive to sign up to newegg to look at your wishlist, if you could just give a little extra post for us europeans we might be able stroke our beards and make 'hmmm' noises as well :))

 

[joeschmuck]

@ danzg

First keeping this real... You wanted to build a HOME NAS, not a NAS for business use so lets keep that in mind. Will you ever truly "need" more than four 2TB drives? If you really think you will expand within the next 3 years, buy a slightly larger power supply or maybe you will replace the 4 drives with new 4TB drives, after all the four drives you are getting today will likely be at the edge of their life in 3 years.

Your RAM selection is off, you are buying 3 sticks of 2GB but did you read the users manual to see if this was possible. I recommend buying either 2 sticks of 2GB (4GB total) or 4 sticks of 2GB (8GB total). The users manual doesn't say it works with three sticks, it only talks about 2 or 4 because this is a dual channel memory setup. I'm running 4GB and she works great. You can keep the extra as a replacement part or you could plug it in a try it out. Ether way run MemTest on it over night to ensure the RAM is good. Remember to plug the RAM into the proper sockets (read the instructions)

In my opinion the system you picked is sound with one serious exception, the power supply. You are looking to purchase a bargain brand cheap power supply that I could only find one review on which stated it was a an okay entry level power supply. Even that review didn't get into any details of what they tested. $70 is not enough to spend on a quality power supply. The only plus I could see about it was it said the magic words "Active PFC" which is absolutely the right direction. Maybe someone could tell you there are some reviews here and it's a great power supply but until you have read a comprehensive test of that power supply, how do you know the 12 volt rails are solid at 80% capacity (example).

I've been building my own home computers since 1980, yes I tell no lies, and some were soldering the components to the boards. Those were the fun learning days.

For the 80Plus to give you maximum performance you need to by the right power supply for the power used. Your system requirements don't look severe unless you add a gaming graphics card to it or a high end CPU. You should calculate out your total watts and be at around 80% capacity of the power supply to give you some expanding room.

Here are my recommendations based on your system.

Running 4 drives
Fanless @ 400 Watts
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151097

Running 8 drives
Fan @ 500 Watts
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817379005

Fan @ 560 Watts
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151098

This one is overkill for your current system but it's a high quality power supply. This company NZXT use to make a 450W power supply but I haven't seen one in a while.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817116011

Now since you wanted a quiet system, I noticed you never mentioned a CPU heatsink. It's going to be loud if you use the stock fan (if you bought a boxed CPU), no box, no fan. First, you need Arctic Silver 5 or similar product and it really does make a difference what heatsink compound you use and how you put it on (just a thin layer and use a utility knif blade or the like to spread it thin, paper thin). A great quality heatsink will come with quality compound so check that out first. Buy as large a heatsink as you can to fit inside the case. You want the largest fan possible which then the fan turns slower and reduces noise. Both my normal computer and NAS are virtually silent. My NAS sits in front of my feet with the cover off and I cannot hear a peep out of it unless the drives are spinning up. I can't even hear then access because I bough quiet drives, not because I'm deaf.

Since the case you picked out is 8" wide (good choice by the way) you can fit almost any heatsink in there. Here is my recommendation but you should ensure it is compatible with your motherboard, but I suspect it is. Don't let the first photo fool you, it does come with the fan. And I have two of these (the intel version) in my systems. Love Them!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233003

And I assume you have a CD-R drive to load the image the first go around and any time in the future. Well that should do for now.

Sorry I didn't read your message sooner.

-Mark

 

[danzg]

Thanks for all the advice.

And now for something completely different ... someone local is selling a Dell Poweredge 1800, 4 GB RAM (expandable to 12GB), with 2x3.0 GHz Intel Xeon, for $200.

That would work too, wouldn't it?

I suspect the downside is that it will be a bit noisier and use more power.

 

[joeschmuck]

Keeping things into perspective here, that is serious overkill for a home server. For the price, good if there are no problems with it and since it's used I'm sure it will be AS-IS sale. Potential problems are: 1) motherboard components are older and likely under high stress running as a server for likely 3 years. 2) you should consider replacing all the fans. 3) You need to get a 30 day return and then run MemTest and a CPU tester like Prime95 (both on The Ultimate Boot CD which is free) to see if there are any stressed components or issues. 4) Is it SCSI or SATA interface for the hard drives? 5) In your mind will you trust all your data to this computer.

-Mark