Poll: The first step towards making the forum better?

[BigDave]

I think that most everyone would agree that for the most part, more patience is called for when dealing
with newbies in this forum. Having said that, I think the bulk of the negative responses stem from
the frustration of dealing with the same questions over and over again. Since this one simple issue
seems to cause most of us to 'grind our teeth", I think it's going to finally come down to "forced
cooperation".

The mods tried to solve the problem you describe with something of a 10 question test that you had to take before you could post to the forums. Nothing difficult, but enough that not only could spammer not be able to answer the questions (solves one problem right there!) but it also makes sure you have done some basic research. I'm talking silly questions like "What is the minimum RAM for FreeNAS?" and others that, if you can't answer, you shouldn't really be posting as you haven't done your due diligence first. But that was shot down for various reasons. I (and virtually all of the mods) think this is still a viable option, but its been a dead option for 2+ years.

I'm sure that this one step will not cure all of the forum issues, but is it a step in the right direction?

 

[Robert Trevellyan]

Agree, with the elsewhere-mentioned refinement that each question should be linked to a place where the answer can be found.

Editing to elaborate: people say to newbies, "you should have read the FAQs", then there follows a discussion of how you can't force people to help themselves. Well, this approach would force people to help themselves at least a little bit. Anyone who has done their homework should find the quiz almost trivially easy to answer, while some who are too lazy to read FAQs and simply want to be spoon-fed might not even bother. Win-win!

 

[depasseg]

At first I really liked the idea of a test, but the more I think about it, I think accepting a terms of service might be a better option.

Something like:

- I will strive my best to not ask questions which are easily covered in the forum rules (url here)
- I understand that FreeNAS might have issues running on less than 8GB of ECC RAM.
I understand that using non-ecc RAM could lead to silent, unrecoverable corruption of a single file and/or all of my data
- I understand that the use of Hardware RAID is strongly discouraged and I could experience data loss if individual drives are not presented to FreeNAS
- I understand that the forums are community supported by users just like me
- I understand that the views presented in the forums do not represent iXsystems, unless posted by a member of staff

 

[mjws00]

Seriously, if there was some sort of retarded technical quiz to join the forum. I likely would NOT have joined, and likely discarded the product. I am sure that is my own bias... but such things seem very arrogant, and trite. Feels a bit like a website that forces email from you before allowing passage. That is possibly from whence my disdain of such things comes. They are not welcoming to new users at all. </Unpopular Opinion>

Simplified terms of service are fine. Extra information is fine. Even 8 checkboxes with the key points as listed above is fine. The reality is there are many more types of users than those that panic and start posting inane questions immediately.

The fact that some people are so burned out they are annoyed by people lower down on the learning curve, is not actually a "new user" problem. It is a symptom of long-term behaviors and issues. I'm an old fart on many forums, this is the ONLY one where I see resentment or frustration towards the FAQ style questions. Everywhere else we just smile and point them in the right direction, or let the question ride to the bottom. No big deal.

 

[Bidule0hm]

At first I really liked the idea of a test, but the more I think about it, I think accepting a terms of service might be a better option.

Something like:

- I will strive my best to not ask questions which are easily covered in the forum rules (url here)
- I understand that FreeNAS might have issues running on less than 8GB of ECC RAM.
I understand that using non-ecc RAM could lead to silent, unrecoverable corruption of a single file and/or all of my data
- I understand that the use of Hardware RAID is strongly discouraged and I could experience data loss if individual drives are not presented to FreeNAS
- I understand that the forums are community supported by users just like me
- I understand that the views presented in the forums do not represent iXsystems, unless posted by a member of staff

The problem with that is the same as the forum rules (on every forum): you just check the checkbox and click on "next" without reading them...

 

[INCSlayer]

as a newbie when it comes to freenas (just check my registration date and post count)
I wholeheartedly agree that a test should be there before posting.

 

[cyberjock]

as a newbie when it comes to freenas (just check my registration date and post count)
I wholeheartedly agree that a test should be there before posting.

The post count numbers regularly go haywire. I have to tell the forums to recalculate regularly because of it. :(

So you can't even use that as a clue. :P

Seriously, if there was some sort of retarded technical quiz to join the forum. I likely would NOT have joined, and likely discarded the product. I am sure that is my own bias... but such things seem very arrogant, and trite. Feels a bit like a website that forces email from you before allowing passage. That is possibly from whence my disdain of such things comes. They are not welcoming to new users at all. </Unpopular Opinion>

Nothing personal, I like you, but I don't expect 100% acceptance of an idea like a Q&A before you can post. Many probably won't join. I'm okay with that too. Not everyone *should* be allowed to post IMO.

If 1 person doesn't join that could potentially have been a major asset and that means that 2000 other useless dumb threads won't exist, I think that's still a major net gain.

 

[mjws00]

The flips side is. There are 2000 more opportunities for users to BECOME contributing members. Everyone has to start somewhere. 'Useless and Dumb' must be framed differently. i.e "Big Tent" philosophy, kinder, gentler, and growing. You can't target growth and remain unapproachable and harsh. You can choose the latter, but it has consequences. That is the crux of the matter at hand

It's easy for us already here. Frankly I find a little bit of 'tough love' quite entertaining. But I am thick skinned and typically lurk a long time before posting.

 

[mattbbpl]

It's OK with me. I'm not sure it will get the results you want, but it wouldn't deter me either.

While we talk about broadening the FreeNAS tent and making it more accessible, this software is, at it's heart, a techie's tool. It's strength lies in things like data redundancy, avoiding/correcting bitrot, and preventing errors in data transmission. That leads directly into conversations about pools, VDevs, ECC RAM, and kernel panic. I don't think encouraging a little knowledge/reading on the basics of FreeNAS and data integrity in general is entirely out of line.

 

[Bidule0hm]

There are 2000 more opportunities for users to BECOME contributing members. Everyone has to start somewhere.

I agree but I disagree: yes, you're right in theory, but in reality I never seen a spoon-fed user becoming a big contributing member...

 

[mjws00]

Heh. I didn't advocate spoon-fed. I can't make time for that. Only professionalism and a lack of soul-crushing. ;)

Of course finding balance is the tricky bit. In reality I find most of the friendly forums are to heavily moderated for my own tastes. But my spam filter is also incredibly well honed, I don't see noise or stupidity, I am blind to it. Occasionally I can't resist a train-wreck. I also feel no obligation to reply to a thread that holds no interest. But one of the best things is finding someone clueless but with the right attitude... and giving them the right kind of help so that they succeed.

I am also a realist. I doubt we'll get it right on the first pass. I'm not even sure a watered down forum holds any interest to me. But from a growth perspective, and one that benefits the product long term this is a no-brainer.

 

[Ericloewe]

If anything, I think such a test should be presented as a Turing test and not a clueless newbie filter.

A link to an FAQ with the answers easily available is absolutely essential. This FAQ must also contain enough information to get people started (even if for details it redirects to stickies).

That said, I'm still on the fence regarding this matter.

 

[Robert Trevellyan]

If anything, I think such a test should be presented as a Turing test and not a clueless newbie filter.

I have no argument with this. I don't think there should be very many questions either. 10 seems like far too many.

I also understand people being on the fence. I love the idea, but I bet it would have unforeseen consequences.

 

[BigDave]

If anything, I think such a test should be presented as a Turing test and not a clueless newbie filter.

Eric, I think you should take a shot at creating a test to test the test.;)

 

[Ericloewe]

Eric, I think you should take a shot at creating a test to test the test.;)

Way too meta for this late in the night. :D

 

[BigDave]

I love the idea, but I bet it would have unforeseen consequences.

Every change brings consequence, but they can be positive, ineffectual and negative. Lets keep talking about ideas to fix what's broken.
Right now we need ideas. Run that flag up the pole and see who salutes it.

 

[Robert Trevellyan]

Run that flag up the pole and see who salutes it.

Saluting!

 

[Noctris]

Seriously, if there was some sort of retarded technical quiz to join the forum. I likely would NOT have joined, and likely discarded the product. I am sure that is my own bias... but such things seem very arrogant, and trite. Feels a bit like a website that forces email from you before allowing passage. That is possibly from whence my disdain of such things comes. They are not welcoming to new users at all. </Unpopular Opinion>

Simplified terms of service are fine. Extra information is fine. Even 8 checkboxes with the key points as listed above is fine. The reality is there are many more types of users than those that panic and start posting inane questions immediately.

The fact that some people are so burned out they are annoyed by people lower down on the learning curve, is not actually a "new user" problem. It is a symptom of long-term behaviors and issues. I'm an old fart on many forums, this is the ONLY one where I see resentment or frustration towards the FAQ style questions. Everywhere else we just smile and point them in the right direction, or let the question ride to the bottom. No big deal.

While i understand your pov, not answering at all will just become 'the new issue' pissing of (newbie) users. Making people feel their question is not worthy of being answered by ignoring them is just as bad.

 

[pirateghost]

While i understand your pov, not answering at all will just become 'the new issue' pissing of (newbie) users. Making people feel there question is not worthy of being answered by ignoring them is just as bad.

Exactly.

When someone says that everyone should ignore a particular question/user/thread, I think about how that reflects just as bad as any other malformed behavior.

Sadly, the forums are a mess. We've tried cleaning it up over the years. I've tried being impartial with anything that I have to handle, and I don't know what will ever work.

As long as iX continues to push the product to as many people as possible, warnings and recommendations be damned, we continue to see an influx of users not willing to take the time to read any information available to them. It is the nature of the current state of the internet. Instant gratification, self proclaimed experts and their videos, etc.
People will watch a video where someone demonstrates installing FreeNAS on an old machine, and bam! That's what they do...

 

[mjws00]

It is important to distinguish between a single user ignoring a thread that does not interest them and the entire community acting in that manner. The former is necessary for long term performance by very busy highly technical folks. It does not imply wholesale exclusion.

For example, early on I decided that I would try and hit ALL of the easy questions to lighten the load a little for cj. Mostly that meant hardware, lack of specs, general zfs questions, and a gentle touch on the non manual readers. Basically the dumb ones that have burned out some of our mods. In addition we've had others do much of the same. So it spreads the load. The point being we have different strengths and tolerance levels, there is no need to resort to harsh unprofessional behaviours.