As was stated earlier in the thread. The past is the past. We can only move forward. There were obviously mistakes made, but the constant dredging up of ancient history only hinders progress.
Sure, but when the past is also the present, I don't feel like we're dredging up "ancient history". Sorry, but I cannot elaborate further on this. These aren't "just issues from 2 years ago". These are issues that have been problems even in June 2015. That's not "ancient history".
It seems to me there is a genuine effort being made to improve. That includes both the desire on behalf of iX and the allocation of resources. It is only fair to extend the benefit of the doubt during implementation.
You know, every time the mods have had this kind of "big blowup" with iXsystems (the person at iX doesn't matter) the mods have always given the benefit of the doubt to iXsystems. I can't tell you how many times the mods were promised that the forums would be all fixed up, with developer support after 9.1 hit RELEASE. The mods even waited a month to give iXsytems the benefit of the doubt, and when asked for a status update they were told the equivalent of "Yeah, I know it was promised, in writing, 6+ times, but we're not doing it and don't ask again" (later the horribly botched forum software migration occurred). The problem now is that the benefit has been given to iXsystems every time and *never* been followed through to satisfactory completion. So you are not going to win a single heart from anyone with a track record like that, and a time frame measured in years. Without action, I can bet the other mods will say "right.. prove it". And rightfully so. When I was first made a mod everyone said that iX does this and promises change, then none comes and after 6-8 months there's a blowup. Then change is promised again (which again doesn't come, or is even worse than the before). Rinse and repeat. And you know, to be honest, that's pretty much exactly what happens. :/
A botched software transition was a symptom of a smorgasbord of other that problems that were "supposed" to be fixed with the upgrade. Except not only did the upgrade take place with no discussion with the mods or the designated "forum admin", but after it rolled out new software trashed a bunch of threads that were cornerstones of the forum and they were full of very useful information. Instead of fixing vbulletin, someone at iXsystems (not pointing fingers at the guilty party) was confident that the new software would solve all these problems once and for all and create this fantastic new environment for mods and users alike. Of course we all know it was none of that, and the person that made the recommendation does not spend time in the forum (remember in the other thread where I said people that have no experience with the problems think they have the answers?) and the forum software rollout not only fixed nothing, it created a whole new list of as-yet unfixed problems. It also went from being a symptom to being a cause of consternation because of other externalties I am choosing to not discuss openly.
I've talked to the person in-person that thought the forum software migration was the way forward. He had no idea that it would end up the way it was. He just didn't know. He thought he was doing the right thing. Unfortunately, in this world intentions don't help as much as results do. :/
If it were my company, and it is not, I would open a dialogue with each mod to ensure they are enthusiastic about their role. I might even ask them for feedback on a complete overhaul, i.e. remove all but the new paid position. Give them a title, let them contribute without obligation. I'm not sure the baggage and resentment can be overcome. Obviously those enthusiastic and happy should be listened to on their future role..
Except that has been offered before. No end-results were to be found. People have been hired (really it was a voluntary position with no actual pay) to handle the forums, and then things were done behind the persons back that was supposed to be the responsible/authorizing party. The baggage may or may not be able to be overcome, but:
- If you choose to say "I'm firing all the mods and they basically have to prove their worth to get the job back" most would say "not worth the effort, goodbye." I can promise you if 1/2 the mods left right now, this forum would basically cease to exist. I know I wouldn't be here trying to fill their shoes. No way no how.
- If you choose to keep them on-board, and again (like every time in the past) ignore their feedback, justify via whatever methods you want that your solution is better
When the forum software upgrade blew up in our face, we had 5 (yes, 5) separate requests for a list of problems. Many of those were ultimately closed with no fix provided except "we aren't fixing it". Many were eventually lost to the passage of time as the bug tickets were taken private (only certain iXsystems employees could even find them or prove they still existed, and some I still cannot access the last time I tried).
At one point an iXsystems employee wanted to do a conference call with the mods to discuss the status of the forums and see what they could do to fix. Only one person actually offered to talk to them (me, and I did not have a working relationship with iX at the time). The rest had been around this game before, done the conference call before, and were confident that volunteering several hours of their own time was
still not worth it as the previous conference calls resulted in no change. I honestly can say that I have seen no changes from a result of that conference call 2 years ago that I had. I always have felt that "giving a chance" costs almost nothing, but at this point I feel like its all lip service until action is actually taken with regards to the forum. And at this point I feel there is no need to even have more communication with the mods to see what is broken. It's all been discussed thoroughly, countless times, and is still available for review in the moderator section of the forum. Start actually fixing stuff and *then* iXsystems might get some ears from the other mods.
As I said in the other thread, in the past when any discussion was made, the mods comments on what was broken and how best to fix it were not of any concern for iX. They only wanted to hear what was broken, then they'd devise their own strategy to fix it, which either didn't do a darn thing, or made things worse.
This problem is much, much deeper than the general public is aware of, and I think that anyone that isn't a moderator, hasn't been one for years, does not truly understand the breadth of the problem, how long it has gone on, how many promises were made and then broken (some deliberately called out as "I'm not doing this and that's final"), etc. Unless you were there to see it, you will probably never understand. Even me, as a moderator for just 2.5 years, still doesn't know the whole story of how things were before I was brought on. :P
No offense to you mjws00, but you don't know enough of the story of how things have been between the mods and iXsystems. And I try not to speak too much about stuff before my time because although the stories I have heard from all of the different mods that existed generally match and seem reasonable based on what
I have seen, I prefer to have people that were actually here comment on those situations. I don't like rumors that may be factually incorrect or just flat out wrong floating around.
I think it was jgreco in the other thread that said he's tired of the lip-service of promised fixes. All of the mods pretty much feel that way. I'm the only one that's in a different, unique situation as I'm also an employee of iXsystems and works under Jordan. I'm not paid for the forums at all, but if someone called me to talk to me about it, it's not like I can choose not to talk about it. So while in the past I might want to give people the middle finger and not participate, I don't get that kind of luxury if I wanted to exercise it. Not that its been a problem and not that I want to exercise it and feel like I can't. But as an employee of iXsystems its just not realistic and doesn't really help me to ignore the issues that I feel
should be fixed. Of course the other mods can choose what they want to do (or not do).
There is an almost endless supply of things to fix, all documented in so many places you probably couldn't put together a comprehensive list anymore because each location was promised to be the "final, comprehensive list that would end all other lists" and never was. There is also an endless supply of enthusiasm. There is even an endless supply of what should be done to fix the problems. What there seems to never be any of is appropriate fixes that improve things and actual execution of the appropriate fixes.
Please don't take my post the wrong way, I'm not advocating holding someone's feet to the fire and laughing while the burn. Things need to change, and I don't expect everyone to be thrilled with all of them either. But there's a certain amount of give and take with all of this, and there's been so much taking by iXsystems over the years (even currently) that I wouldn't blame the other mods if they decided to collectively bail on this whole community and project if there isn't some obvious and clear giving by iXsystems first.
I had decided weeks ago that my role in this forum is changing. I've got better things to do than answer every thread that has 2GB of RAM with "rtfm silly goose". I'll be making far less frequent posts in the future, but most people will find my posts very knowledge-rich and well written to help the more advanced users that do want to get involved with the deeper aspects of things. In fact, many will likely be white papers and knowledgebase articles than forum posts.
