USB not recommended? SSD are for boot/operating system?

[truefriend-cz]

I'd probably leave it alone. I use an SSD disk connected to USB, because my server is intended for NAS and has a USB port directly on the board, and even though it is an SSD and not a USB Flash, it also shows me this error. Developer guys in TrueNAS should distinguish what type of storage is connected and not what port it is connected through.

 

[jgreco]

I'd probably leave it alone. I use an SSD disk connected to USB, because my server is intended for NAS and has a USB port directly on the board, and even though it is an SSD and not a USB Flash, it also shows me this error. Developer guys in TrueNAS should distinguish what type of storage is connected and not what port it is connected through.

Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but the practical fact is that they don't care what port it is connected through. It's that the devices themselves are screwed to hell and often do idiotic crap like reporting the same serial number. Additionally, there are perils involving the flakiness of USB ("oops bumped a cable") as outlined by Arwen in the Resources section.

I suspect developer guys in TrueNAS wish that user guys in Internet would not assume malicious design but would also read the available documentation that explains stuff like this.

 

[Davvo]

I suspect developer guys in TrueNAS wish that user guys in Internet would not assume malicious design but would also read the available documentation that explains stuff like this.

I really hate when a random dude just comes here and start slandering developers, and I am just a user; a lot of people should not reflect themselves into others.

Personally I am using a MLC USB stick as my boot pool, with my system dataset on my SSD pool: so far I had one year without any issues.

 

[truefriend-cz]

I really hate when a random dude just comes here and start slandering developers, and I am just a user; a lot of people should not reflect themselves into others.

Personally I am using a MLC USB stick as my boot pool, with my system dataset on my SSD pool: so far I had one year without any issues.

Do not take it as a slander (a social thing), but a feedback on some features of the product (a technical thing).
As a drawback, I mentioned that TrueNAS marks an SSD connected via USB as a USB device. Even if it is registered as an SSD by the system. It's not about whether there's a problem with it or not, it's about what the system is reporting. Take things as they are and at the level at which they are solved (partial things) and you don't have to apply "all the affairs of the whole world" to it - especially social. I listed the developers because they are developing the product, if AI was developing it I would include it. So I have nothing against the developers to see them negatively, but I'd like to contribute to making sure it doesn't report any error status when it doesn't have to. If I could do it myself, I would, but unfortunately, the developers are the only ones who can do something about it at the moment and help me and other users. I hope this detailed explanation is enough for you and you will not criticize me and label me as someone who came here to do harm. Thank you very much for your understanding. If you want to label me as an advanced user, thanks. And who are you?

 

[jgreco]

Do not take it as a slander (a social thing), but a feedback on some features of the product (a technical thing).

It's not a feature of the product. It's a technical thing about the junk you've decided to attach to your server. The USB stuff has deficiencies. The developers have decided that it isn't a problem for the paying customers who fund the development of the product. It's the same reason lots of other hardware doesn't work or doesn't work well with FreeBSD and Linux.

 

[truefriend-cz]

It's not a feature of the product. It's a technical thing about the junk you've decided to attach to your server. The USB stuff has deficiencies. The developers have decided that it isn't a problem for the paying customers who fund the development of the product. It's the same reason lots of other hardware doesn't work or doesn't work well with FreeBSD and Linux.

Good. So why is it a problem to connect an SSD drive that is connected to a USB connector than when it is connected via a SATA port?
I thought this functionality (notifying the user that they are using a USB device as bootable) is there to warn the user that if the user is booting from "USB Flash" storage then the OS (TrueNAS) may crash due to USB Flash wear .
I am trying to point out that it does not matter whether the SSD disk (not USB Flash) is connected via a SATA interface cable, or whether it is connected as an external SSD HDD to USB.
The problem I am describing is that even though I have a USB SDD Drive connected, TrueNAS tells me that this is a problem because the USB should not be used to boot the TrueNAS system. And I was wondering why this is a problem... when I came here to the forum, I learned that it is because people install TrueNAS from USB Flash into the USB, which can cause the risk that the USB Flash will stop working and people will no longer start TrueNAS . Which I understand. I don't see a problem with that. But I don't have USB Flash, but I have a USB SSD disk, which I would normally have connected to a SATA cable, but I can't, because all the SATA positions are already occupied and the manufacturer of my server has a USB port not only as an output from the case, but also has one directly on the base board precisely for the purpose of being able to connect an external disk (Solid state drive, not USB Flash disk) from which to start the operating system.
And I use that one. But TrueNAS gives me a notification that it's a problem (probably because it thinks I'm using USB Flash but I'm not using it because I'm using a USB SSD (the external box that stores the Solid State Drive and I use it in USB but for the life of the drive it would should have had no effect)). TrueNAS (Scale) in terminal is normally able to identify this SSD in the USB port as an SSD for me.

Why is it a problem that I use an SSD drive to boot TrueNAS from the USB port and not from the SATA port?

Do I have to go and buy a new server immediately, because in the next versions of TrueNAS even installation on an external USB SSD will be prohibited, and will I get a discount for buying a series device from TrueNAS? etc., ... I don't know what to expect in the future so that I can go and rob a bank (joke).

I don't know the reason for the warning and I didn't find an answer to it in the documentation either, so I'm interested. And from what I found on the forum, it doesn't make much sense to me.
And... I don't know why it bothers anyone that I asked here and wrote to the developers that they should look into it. Are there religious fanatics and consider the developers as gods that are forbidden to approach or talk about? :D

 

[Patrick M. Hausen]

Why is it a problem that I use an SSD drive to boot TrueNAS from the USB port and not from the SATA port?

It isn't but it's impossible to tell software wise what kind of storage technology a USB device is. The system just sees "USB". So it assumes USB == USB flash.

 

[jgreco]

Why is it a problem that I use an SSD drive to boot TrueNAS from the USB port and not from the SATA port?

It isn't really a problem in this particular case. Computers are supposed to warn users when things happen that could potentially be a problem. Since IXsystems doesn't sell systems with USB SSD's, the system doesn't bother to triage the potential issue and instead just reports it. You can feel free to disregard it.

It feels like you are trying to make an issue out of a nonissue. Perhaps it's better if you just accept the reality.

 

[truefriend-cz]

It isn't really a problem in this particular case. Computers are supposed to warn users when things happen that could potentially be a problem. Since IXsystems doesn't sell systems with USB SSD's, the system doesn't bother to triage the potential issue and instead just reports it. You can feel free to disregard it.

It feels like you are trying to make an issue out of a nonissue. Perhaps it's better if you just accept the reality.

Thank you @jgreco and @Patrick M. Hausen .
I'm not trying to cause a problem but i want understand the thing. If I am to accept reality, I must first understand it, so as not to accept any hoax, fake news and what I can think of myself, but legitimate information, which I think is quite desirable in an Enterprise environment.

 

[Constantin]

My highly unscientific observation is that USB sticks fail at about a rate of 9-15 months and the SSDs in my flash pool have racked up many times more then that in much heavier load (Nextcloud, mariaDB, zvol’s for VMs and other services) and show no signs of age as of yet.

When it’s time to retire the Dell I will definitely have a SATA device for boot.

I agree that it’s theoretically possible to find a USB stick that contains quality flash, wear leveling brains, etc. In practice, only SATADOMs from quality OEMs like Supermicro likely meet that bar for small drives, which also helps explain why they are so expensive relative to the tiny amount of flash they contain. My two SATADOMs continue to behave nicely and it’s been a few years.

Trouble is, you cannot stick a SATADOM into a USB port without some adapters, which in turn may cause trouble in themselves. Plus, a SATADOM is most convenient with a motherboard that it was designed for (ie no hunting for 5v power source via a IDE connector, pin pair on the motherboard, etc.) Supermicro makes such motherboards and they conveniently color their SATADOM ports in a different color (yellow) from regular SATA ports.

 

[Davvo]

I'm not trying to cause a problem but i want understand the thing. If I am to accept reality, I must first understand it, so as not to accept any hoax, fake news and what I can think of myself, but legitimate information, which I think is quite desirable in an Enterprise environment.

You cannot consider official documents as hoax/fake news, especially in an enterprise environment.

 

[Constantin]

You cannot consider official documents as hoax/fake news, especially in an enterprise environment.

especially apparent when it comes to warranty policies and recalls, ie things that might cost the OEM some money.

Latest case in point: the crappy Apple Butterfly keyboard in 2016-era laptops. They came to a settlement, agreed the keyboards were crappy and would replace broken ones and/or refund past repair. But only if it was a long-past repair or the laptop was purchased after 2019.

I did get a free cleaning out of it and they replaced a broken key cap. But cannot say I’m impressed.

 

[truefriend-cz]

You cannot consider official documents as hoax/fake news, especially in an enterprise environment.

where in the TrueNAS documentation is the mentioned functionality of checking the USB disk?

 

[Patrick M. Hausen]

CORE Hardware Guide

Describes the hardware specifications and system component recommendations for custom TrueNAS CORE deployment.

www.truenas.com

You do not need an SSD boot device, but we discourage using a spinner or a USB stick.

SCALE Hardware Guide

Provides information on system hardware and system minimum requirements. Included information covers CPUs, storage considerations and solutions, media and controllers, device sizing and cooling, SAS expanders, and system memory.

www.truenas.com

You do not need an SSD boot device, but we discourage using a spinner or a USB stick.

 

[Ericloewe]

Let's rewind for a second... TrueNAS is actively complaining about disks attached via USB now? I missed that development. Not that I have a problem with it, if you think SATA DOMs are expensive, wait till you see the prices on industrial USB flash drives.

 

[Davvo]

TrueNAS is actively complaining about disks attached via USB now?

I don't think so. I have no warnings or anything with my USB boot pool.

 

[danb35]

So all of @truefriend-cz' complaining is about a recommendation in the docs?

 

[beagle]

SCALE Hardware Guide

Provides information on system hardware and system minimum requirements. Included information covers CPUs, storage considerations and solutions, media and controllers, device sizing and cooling, SAS expanders, and system memory.

www.truenas.com

You do not need an SSD boot device, but we discourage using a spinner or a USB stick.

I understand the durability problems with USB sticks but why not spinners (HDD)? Performance?

 

[Constantin]

I understand the durability problems with USB sticks but why not spinners (HDD)? Performance?

That would be my guess, especially if swap is involved. Even basic read/write benefits tremendously from SSD, especially if they’re small files.

 

[danb35]

...though performance is hardly an issue for the boot pool. Even though the OS no longer lives on a RAMdisk, ZFS caching means that most of the OS is going to live in RAM most of the time.