BUILD Questions: XEON (Haswell), Mini-ITX and ECC

[M2M]

So I am thinking about building my own DIY NAS.

After reading this excellent introduction: http://forums.freenas.org/threads/so-you-want-some-hardware-suggestions.12276 and also this thread http://forums.freenas.org/threads/ecc-vs-non-ecc-ram-and-zfs.15449/ I am convinced that it is rather smart to go for ECC.

My current planned hardware looks as follows:

• NSC-600 NAS server chassis: http://www.u-nas.com/product/nsc600.html
• Intel Xeon E3-1268L v3: http://ark.intel.com/products/75467
• 16 GB ECC RAM (2x8): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239370

• ASRock E3C226D2I Mini ITX: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157466

or

• ASRock Z87E-ITX Mini ITX: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157374

Now I still have some questions: As you can see I currently have 2 Mobo's I am thinking about. The ASRock Server-Board ASRock E3C226D2 or the Consumer Z87E-ITX. I would be temped by the latter because this one also features HDMI output (would make it nice to connect to my TV and as a NAS + HTPC).

In addition I read somewhere on Anandtech (not sure exactly where though) that the new Haswell-based Xeons have basically moved the Memory Controller into the CPU. So my question is: Is this true ? Is a Haswell Xeon "enough" to make ECC working - with matching RAM of course ? Or is does the Motherboard still need to support ECC ?

According to ASRocks CPU Support List (http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z87E-ITX/?cat=CPU) the Z87E-ITX even supports 1200 Xeons - which tends me to think this might be true. Furthermore I found a company selling the "smalles Xeon PC" - with ECC RAM: http://www.gamepc.com/shop/systemfamily.asp?family=tfo&cookie_test=1

So does anyone know further details ?

Would the Z87E-ITX support ECC - would even any other board with LGA1150 and a Xeon V3 + ECC RAM work ?

Thanks !

 

[Dr.T]

Well, AsRock officially states that Z87E-ITX support only non-ECC memory.

 

[M2M]

Well, AsRock officially states that Z87E-ITX support only non-ECC memory.

Well, yes I know. So still my questions are:

1) Do I need the boards support for ECC anyway ?
2) In case, 1 = yes, does the Z87E-ITX unofficially support ECC ?

 

[JohnK]

"NSC-600 NAS server chassis

High quality, compact, low noise and extremely efficient heat dissipation NAS server chassis for DIYer's."

I looked at that chassis and the first thing that came to mind is fried drives. Also looking at the drive brackets I cannot believe it is quiet with no anti-vibration.

Once you build this server, please post how it does with heat. :)

 

[JohnK]

Well, yes I know. So still my questions are:

1) Do I need the boards support for ECC anyway ?
2) In case, 1 = yes, does the Z87E-ITX unofficially support ECC ?
M2M, 9 minutes agoReport
#3Like

1. Yes
2. Probably won't post.

 

[M2M]

"NSC-600 NAS server chassis.

I looked at that chassis and the first thing that came to mind is fried drives. Also looking at the drive brackets I cannot believe it is quiet with no anti-vibration.

Once you build this server, please post how it does with heat. :)

Thanks for the input !

I plan to use WD green series drives, which should hopefully run cool enough. Actually performance is of no top priority to me. I am rather looking for a compact, energy efficient and (relatively) noisy free NAS (so no anti-vibration of the chassis may rule it out then - thanks again for the input).

Any other case or chassis suggestion ?

1. Yes
2. Probably won't post.

This is then foobar: http://www.gamepc.com/shop/systemfamily.asp?family=tfo&cookie_test=1 ?

 

[Dr.T]

In addition I read somewhere on Anandtech (not sure exactly where though) that the new Haswell-based Xeons have basically moved the Memory Controller into the CPU.

Couldn't find any information to confirm this. But there is one mention about ECC in Q87 (Z87 brother) page at Intel site:

Developers can also utilize error correcting code (ECC) memory when select processors are used with the Intel® C226 chipset

I'd like it's have been true, and it's chance the ECC RAM will be working in that board (at least I saw precedents), but it will work like non-ECC, so there's no reason to buy one.

Nobody tried this, so if you do - please inform us :)

 

[tio]

Maybe a bt off bad but if you're looking to spend that much on hardware with ECC, why not go for an old workstation like an XW8400 which has built in Xeons and can take the new 53xx series with a bios update and the DDR FB ECC memory it uses is usually pretty cheap for 4GB modules and can take up to 32GB in its 8 slots for less than what you're proposing

It also has 10 SATA (6 and 4 SAS which double as SATA ports)

 

[M2M]

XW8400 is too big and takes to much power I expect - and probably is also too noisy ;)

 

[tio]

I have one in work and draws little power when idle especially if you use the low power Xeons. 10 drives, 32gb of ram and two 40W chips inside it as idle is only 90W draw. At load its 200W which isn't for very long.

Noise isn't an issue. The bigger the case, the bigger the fans and the lower the RPM they need to spin to generate the airflow. Smaller case will always generate more noise due to the amount of air it has to push through it which causes its own noise separate of the spinning fans itself.

Or why not save yourself the hassle and order the N54L with 16GB Of ECC RAM? Mini ITX board inside it, fits 16Gb and will take 6 drives with a bracketed in the 5.25 bay? Im also sure that HP offers cash back on the N54L making it a more attractive box.

 

[JohnK]

This is then foobar: http://www.gamepc.com/shop/systemfamily.asp?family=tfo&cookie_test=1 ?

Well maybe the guys at GamePC knows something that no one else knows, but I would think that any one sticking a gaming Mobo, with no IPMI, into a rack mount chassis is kind of clueless. Specially a MOBO that doesn't seem to support Xeon processor they are also flogging.

 

[M2M]

OK didn't read it on Anandtech and its not even Haswell only - but this comment https://communities.intel.com/message/159229#159229 and this one http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?s=886e16c8a8793d2e0d67917053130610&p=1039708407&postcount=31 make me tend to believe ECC is dependant on CPU. rather then on board. But I am not an expert on this one

 

[M2M]

Well maybe the guys at GamePC knows something that no one else knows, but I would think that any one sticking a gaming Mobo, with no IPMI, into a rack mount chassis is kind of clueless. Specially a MOBO that doesn't seem to support Xeon processor they are also flogging.

The MOBO supports Xeons according to ASRock: http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z87E-ITX/?cat=CPU
Not that this is making the sticking of a gaming mobo into a rack mount less clueless...

 

[JohnK]

The MOBO supports Xeons according to ASRock: http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z87E-ITX/?cat=CPU

I stand correct, I was looking at NewEgg.
You might want to reach out to GamPC and ask them if they can guarantee ECC support in their set up.

Any other case or chassis suggestion ?

I think your Chassis depends on how many drive you need and whether you can live with non hot swapping drives. I have a Fractal Design Midi and I'm happy with it apart from the pain of removing a failing drive. I do hope not to have too many of those.

 

[Dr.T]

This question is asked repeatedly, see the 2011's Xeon + consumer chipset = ECC support?, but if it would be true, now we would only buy tasty consumer boards with AC WiFi and HDMI-s for ECC support, but we are not, don't we? :(
Any support will tell you they cannot guarantee it, no one will take responsibility, so it's on your own.

 

[JohnK]

I think it is more complex than "Xeon + consumer chipset = ECC support" Your problem is going to be does the motherboard recognize the RAM. I had a quick look at the supported RAM for the Z87E and I didn't see any ECC Kingson RAM. Now I know that some SuperMicro mobos allow you to switch between ECC and non-ECC and I know that the new X10 series SuperMicro will not post non-ECC (I tested this). Also looking at the Z87E manual I see no feature to switch in the BIOS. So my gut feel in non posting is going to be your problem first.

 

[cyberjock]

We just had a thread on this a few weeks ago. To use ECC RAM with an Intel system you must have these 3 components:

1. Motherboard chipset must support ECC(aka must be a server grade chipset).
2. CPU must support ECC(can be found by checking out Intel's ARK for the CPU you are interested in).
3. ECC RAM must be installed in the system(duh?).

Keep in mind this is Intel only. If you choose to go with AMD then "good luck" is in order because its a mix and match game with them.

If you don't have one or more of those three then the system may not even POST. If it does POST, it will run in non-ECC mode.

As for the comment about the Haswell taking the memory controller on-CPU, I have news for you. The memory controller was taken on-CPU back in 2008 when the Nehalem CPUs were released. That's when the FSB(Front Side Bus) went the way of the dodo bird and that's one of several reasons why the first gen i3/5/7 made a giant performance jump over the prior CPU architecture.

 

[vissymies]

Thanks for the input !

I plan to use WD green series drives, which should hopefully run cool enough. Actually performance is of no top priority to me. I am rather looking for a compact, energy efficient and (relatively) noisy free NAS (so no anti-vibration of the chassis may rule it out then - thanks again for the input).

I'd choose WD Red series instead of WD Green, they are much better in RAID-like setups.

 

[M2M]

Got a reply from GamePC. So the ASRock Z87E-ITX does not support the ECC function. Still nice that they confirm.

Hi ...,

The Z87 chipset does not support ECC function, and we can honestly tell you the reasons
why Kingston DDR3-1600 ECC 8GB RAM are configured because it is a very reliable single
8GB RAM and we have had other customers that wants this ECC RAM in their corporate
environment that are using other C222 chipset-based servers, so the memory modules are interchangeable.

One may think its a "waste" to purchase the Kingston ECC RAM when ECC is not used, but as all
of our systems are custom-configured, you can certainly pick any DDR3-1600 non-ECC RAM for
your set up.

The ASRock Z87E-ITX does support Haswell E3 1200 Series Xeons with the latest BIOS update.

Thank you,

Sales Team
Solid Electric, Inc.

 

[JohnK]

So in a nutshell they have customers in the corporate environment who requires the stability of ECC RAM, they buy at a premium, and in their down time they over clock their motherboards and play the latest games?

I think they are just a little clueless and I will be very careful before following their builds. :).

If you are thinking a bigger case, have you considered just going with a server class Micro motherboards?