Obsolence vs modernity

Status
Not open for further replies.

jgreco

Resident Grinch
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
18,680
[OT: Your parking lot anecdote sounds strikingly similar to a scene from "Fried Green Tomatoes", at least the movie version http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101921/quotes ]

I, ah, well let's just say my having heard the anecdote ... um, I guess the correct word is, "predates" that. Though I have no doubt that FGT could have been an opportunistic use of it.

I've heard a number of anecdotes over the years that pit old vs young, "righting" wrongs, etc., but I can't think of any other that so elegantly explained the benefit of having sufficient money. And it's a terrible, naughty anecdote, right?

Anyways, I never liked the idea of not having sufficient money, which is why I've usually been a bit of a penny-pincher, and why I'm running things like FreeNAS for storage rather than vendor-provided solutions.
 

pdenommee

Dabbler
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
26
I have contacted the CRA (the equivalent in the US is the IRS) and they issued me a Federal Business number. This removes that last hurdle from any import project that I may have.

I can now purchase any hardware I want, even if it is located in USA, I just need to use the number, declare the stuff and pay the Federal taxes.
 

pdenommee

Dabbler
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
26
Obviously, tax laws have a strong impact on business decisions. We never lease for personal purpose because the interests are not tax deductible. Computer hardware is often leased because the full amount paid is tax deductible. When I was an undergraduate student, for tax purpose, computer hardware was depreciated 30% per year , this is, 30% of the actual value was lost every year. Purchasing hardware is a large expense, but corporations can only deduct 30% of it the first year. So, a $10,000 purchase would have a legal value if $4,900 after three years. I you auction it for more, it is a taxable income, if you auction it for less, it is a deductible loss.

Suppose that you keep it for 10 years, something I have done numerous time with client PC, it would have a legal value of $403,54. After 5 years, you would have deducted $8,319 and you would have little incentive to keep it.

A case study that was used for University teaching shows that a corporation was still running on PC-XT and PC-AT when Intel 80486 were widely available. The reason, they have purchased that stuff (and remember, a PC AT costed $10,000 at the time if its introduction) and they have to hold on it as long as it is a good source of tax deduction. Disgruntle employees saw their productivity greatly reduced by the obsolete hardware, but they were not the one with the power to change things.
 

jgreco

Resident Grinch
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
18,680
Obviously, tax laws have a strong impact on business decisions. We never lease for personal purpose because the interests are not tax deductible.

Well, not quite true. There are definitely some places that sell computers on a "rent-to-own" or "lease" basis to individuals. These days, many of those seem to be poor quality computers designed to prey upon the poor though.

Computer hardware is often leased because the full amount paid is tax deductible. When I was an undergraduate student, for tax purpose, computer hardware was depreciated 30% per year , this is, 30% of the actual value was lost every year. Purchasing hardware is a large expense, but corporations can only deduct 30% of it the first year. So, a $10,000 purchase would have a legal value if $4,900 after three years. I you auction it for more, it is a taxable income, if you auction it for less, it is a deductible loss.

Suppose that you keep it for 10 years, something I have done numerous time with client PC, it would have a legal value of $403,54. After 5 years, you would have deducted $8,319 and you would have little incentive to keep it.

So yes, and here in the US, the cycle is that at the end of an 3-to-5-year lease, the gear is returned to the leasing company, parts'ed up, and then sold on fleabay or via other "refurbished" PC sources.

But the incentive to keep it is that the cost-to-replace is substantial. For example, we just picked up a bunch of off-lease HP 8300 Elite's for $125/ea. 4GB RAM, i5-3470 CPU, 250GB HDD. So first off, if we were to build a new Windows desktop, I can't even *just* purchase the Win10Pro license for that price, much less buy the parts. Ironically I was told that Win7-licensed desktops were being returned at end-of-lease because the replacements would have Win10. Gobsmacked, we bought some of these, licensed for 7Pro, I shot a Win10 DVD in them, updated, pulled the disk and put in an SSD, reloaded, and Win10Pro auto-activated perfectly. I can't buy the damn LICENSE on its own for the price.

Now, the thing is, these are probably being replaced at wherever they came from with something like the EliteDesk 800 G3 (i5-7500, 8GB DDR4 2400) which goes for around $750.

According to benchmarks, the new box is around 19% faster. But still comes with a fricken' hard drive. So if I really needed that last 19%, maybe an upgrade, but also maybe just also swap in a refurb i7-3470 CPU that is spec'd to work in the older system.

A case study that was used for University teaching shows that a corporation was still running on PC-XT and PC-AT when Intel 80486 were widely available. The reason, they have purchased that stuff (and remember, a PC AT costed $10,000 at the time if its introduction) and they have to hold on it as long as it is a good source of tax deduction. Disgruntle employees saw their productivity greatly reduced by the obsolete hardware, but they were not the one with the power to change things.

Well that's a reasonable call to make from the era of revolutionary speed increases on a nearly yearly basis. I talked about that upstream:

Going capex and writing it off as a sec 179 has gotten better over the years as Congress has used continuing 179/raising the 179 limit repeatedly as a way to encourage small business investment (reduce tax revenue?) But even without 179, 5 year depreciation is pretty reasonable. The 179 thing only works for small businesses. The thinking for bigger companies seems to be that they got a bit spanked during the 90's and 00's with the rapid growth of computing power, and that they'd prefer the shorter commitment, but that they just haven't noticed that has mostly failed to be compelling in the last ~8-10 years.

The thing is, as a small business owner, I am also a technologist, so I both look at the hardware to buy and sign the checks. So I don't see reason to sell hardware we bought three to five years ago just because it is three to five years old. In many cases, I'm actually happy to buy someone else's used stuff at a steep discount because it so closely resembles what we'd buy today new.

PC's - discussed above.

LSI RAID controllers. The go-to for a local RAID on an ESXi host is something like an LSI 9271CV-8i (~$700) or 9361-8i+CV (~$800) but people are hesitant to pay that. In 2016 I had a customer buy a system with a 9341-8i (~$300) HBA because he couldn't stomach the extra $500 and didn't think he needed the performance. Last year, he came back for another system, and I had been cherry-picking $125 9270CV-8i's off eBay, and I told him I could sell him two used and tested 9270CV's for less than the cost of an HBA, and they'd be super-turbo-faster. Sold.

Network controllers - the X520-SR2's for $150 ... amazing.

Businesses are discarding these items and then buying a similar item to replace it. So a LOT of what I'm seeing isn't the XT-to-486 thing. It is not knowing the difference, and getting rid of perfectly usable hardware anyways. I would rather hold on to gear until there was a compelling argument to replace it.

I don't know how it works up in the Great White North, but down here, you can do what's called a "section 179" that allows you to deduct the cost in the first year. It has recapture rules that are similar if you sell the gear before the end of when it would have depreciated. Even before that, I know that some businesses just warehoused gear that was underperforming to deal with the XT-to-486 type issue. The taxman can't force you to *use* the gear.

So if you look at it from that angle, if a business is still using XT's when 486's are available and would be a good upgrade to make, they're just a stupid business for the productivity, employee happiness, etc., reasons you mention. Take the crap, throw it in a closet to live out the depreciation, and buy new crap.

I'm more interested in the opposite behaviour, which is getting rid of perfectly decent gear because of business practices that are effectively wasting money. I don't mind a big capex investment that will pay off over the years.
 

jgreco

Resident Grinch
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
18,680
I have contacted the CRA (the equivalent in the US is the IRS) and they issued me a Federal Business number. This removes that last hurdle from any import project that I may have.

I can now purchase any hardware I want, even if it is located in USA, I just need to use the number, declare the stuff and pay the Federal taxes.

So, again, I don't know how it works in the Great White North, but down here in the US, a good bit of advice is that if you can plausibly make a business out of what might otherwise be a hobby, do so. There's basically a test that involves profitability over five years, but if you can turn a profit - even a tiny one - over three of five years, you could be a business, and this gets you into the realm of Real Business Deductions. If there's any chance that you could fall under whatever the Canadian rules for this kind of thing are, let me tell you, it's nice not to pay income taxes on gear. I know a number of people who do this for things like their virtualization homelabs and other costly ventures for professional development.

Congratulations on the Federal Business number. Make good use of it. ;-)
 

pdenommee

Dabbler
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
26
Another possibility, with really obsolete hardware, is to donate it to Insertech http://www.insertech.ca . This not-for-profit organization refurbish and reclycle old computers. It is recognized as a Registered Charity, so when you give them an used computer, even a broken one, you get a tax benefit. Insertech employs young workers on Welfare and anybody who cannot find a job. They offer on site training for 5 career opportunities (office clerk, sales associate, computer assembly, small electronic repair and warehouse clerk/ fork lift driver). Over 90% of their employees will finish their training and obtain valuable work experience.
 

pro lamer

Guru
Joined
Feb 16, 2018
Messages
626
Mine's an X9DRi-LN4F+
What PSU do you use? (EDIT: I'm considering an x9 dual socket ATX motherboard purchase and trying to size a PSU properly)
 
Last edited:

jgreco

Resident Grinch
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
18,680
What PSU do you use? (EDIT: I'm considering an x9 dual socket ATX motherboard purchase and trying to size a PSU properly)

Asking someone else's PSU may not be a good idea, as they may have a substantially different set of hardware, especially the number of drives.

https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?resources/proper-power-supply-sizing-guidance.39/

It isn't that rough to work it out, and if you're having trouble, post a list of your anticipated hardware and it's very likely someone can give you more specific guidance. Alternatively, there are some precalculated numbers in that resource, which you might need to adjust a little if you have a dual CPU system, but are still pretty good.
 

Chris Moore

Hall of Famer
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
10,080
What PSU do you use? (EDIT: I'm considering an x9 dual socket ATX motherboard purchase and trying to size a PSU properly)
It has been years since I tried to get a dual socket board to work without it being in a proper rack chassis with integrated hot-swap power supplies, but the hard part was finding a power supply that had two of the 8 pin CPU power lines. I suppose that you can rig something with the video card power lines, but it will be a risk.
I ended up with a power supply that was much more powerful than required, because that was the only way to get factory cables.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
 

jgreco

Resident Grinch
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
18,680
but the hard part was finding a power supply that had two of the 8 pin CPU power lines.

That's actually an excellent point. Supermicro and others do make these (for example the PWS-1K25P-PQ) but they're kinda pricey.

I suppose that you can rig something with the video card power lines, but it will be a risk.

That may also be an option, especially if you re-pin them into an 8 pin connector (be damn careful!)
 

Chris Moore

Hall of Famer
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
10,080
That's actually an excellent point. Supermicro and others do make these (for example the PWS-1K25P-PQ) but they're kinda pricey.

That may also be an option, especially if you re-pin them into an 8 pin connector (be damn careful!)
Good point about being careful. You could replace the connector with one of these, to connect the power line that is intended for a video card to the system board instead, but if you get the pinout wrong, fried systemboard:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA9F948E5346
My boss is very risk averse, so we ended up buying a whole power supply from NewEgg that is marketed as being made by Supermicro, but I am sure someone else makes it. I just wish I could remember the model number. It could be the same one as listed by @jgreco. It was 1000 or 1200 watts, if I recall, and we didn't need all that but the documentation said it had two EPS power connectors and the boss wanted something that was sure to work without issue.
 
Last edited:

jgreco

Resident Grinch
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
18,680
fried systemboard:

Don't you just love the smell of burning silicon?

Fav quote:

Computers run on smoke: when the smoke comes out, they stop running
- Tony Podrasky <tonyp@convex.com>

I just wish I could remember the model number. It was 1000 or 1200 watts, if I recall, and we didn't need all that but the documentation said it had two EPS power connectors and the boss wanted something that was sure to work without issue.

If it's an ATX supply, then it's almost certainly the part number I quoted above. :)

If it makes you feel any better, I just shipped out a CSE-216BA-R920LPB (dual redundant 920W PSU) with an X10SDV-7TP4F (35W TDP CPU) and loaded up with about 20 drives I think the thing has yet to get above the 120W mark. That's 1840W of PSU for a 90-120W platform. :smile:
 

Chris Moore

Hall of Famer
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
10,080
Computers run on smoke: when the smoke comes out, they stop running
I love that. I have paraphrased it myself many times.
 

Bidule0hm

Server Electronics Sorcerer
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
3,710
Fortunately you can now repair your silicon with this kit :)
 

Chris Moore

Hall of Famer
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
10,080

pro lamer

Guru
Joined
Feb 16, 2018
Messages
626

danb35

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
15,504
Is is the affiliate code added to newegg links as mentioned in some primer
I believe it's mentioned in the Will It FreeNAS forum, but not otherwise. But yes, iX does try to monetize the forum. Sometimes to the point of breaking things.
 

pro lamer

Guru
Joined
Feb 16, 2018
Messages
626
That's actually an excellent point. Supermicro and others do make these (for example the PWS-1K25P-PQ) but they're kinda pricey.
I'm considering PWS-865-PQ among others, it has two 8-PIN 12V CPU connectors. Con: few SATA connectors but maybe I'll buy a molex-style connector powered drive cage.

That may also be an option, especially if you re-pin them into an 8 pin connector (be damn careful!)
especially if wires were all black.

I'm considering a modular corsair rm850x 2018 too, it has only one 12V 8-PIN CPU connector, but maybe some modular cables pre-made by corsair (hopefully good quality thus fire-safe) are available separately.

EDIT: now I am not sure what the number of these connectors is.
hard part was finding a power supply that had two of the 8 pin CPU power lines
I'm verifying my candidate PSUs one more way, a colleague advised: look at the chassis recommended for a motherboard and learn the chassis' PSU.

EDIT: I am still evaluating my power needs and haven't bought any new PSU yet. It's lots of calculations but I think I am halfway through :)
 
Last edited:

Stux

MVP
Joined
Jun 2, 2016
Messages
4,419

pro lamer

Guru
Joined
Feb 16, 2018
Messages
626
The real difference is in their idle power usage.
I've even seen a PSU advertised as Haswell-ready because of the above :)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top