No real support for NTSF volumes?

[Gravypicante]

EDIT: ( Errrr... I mean NTFS )

I've just put FreeNAS 9.2.0 on an old computer, and was able to create a new ZFS Windows share without much trouble.

Now I'd like to create another Windows share using an existing drive. This drive uses NTFS, which I see that FreeNAS doesn't seem to like. But I was able to mount the volume in FreeNAS anyway, using the "Import Volume" button.

However, that seems to be all I can do. No options to set the owner/group of the volume. No way to set permissions for the volume. I tried just making the volume available to anyone on the network, but even that didn't work.

Am I out of luck? Is it ZFS or nothing? Or is there a way to reasonably use an NTFS drive as well?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[cyberjock]

You can't and shouldn't use NTFS on freenas long term. You need to use zfs or ufs.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[Gravypicante]

Thank you for the reply. If I had a choice, I certainly would have used ZFS. But this is an external USB enclosure that I wanted to mount on FreeNAS without breaking its ability to be swapped between computers later. I would be surprised if Windows happily accepted a ZFS volume via USB ... so I assume that isn't an option in this case.

I was however, able to solve my original problem. There was an apostrophe (a single quote character) in the drive/volume name. The end effect was that FreeNAS showed the volume as mounted, but there were no options for the volume in the GUI. I detached the volume, changed its name on another computer and tried mounting it in FreeNAS again. It showed up again, but this time the volume had a "Permissions" option that I could edit. That's all I was looking for, and now I'm able to use the drive.

 

[cyberjock]

And you realize you are taking grave risks with that data by using NTFS on FreeNAS? The number of people that have used NTFS and had it eat their drive suddenly is near 100%. Good luck! Sounds like you like pain.

There is actually a ticket in the FreeNAS system to force all NTFS mounts to be in read-only mode to prevent data loss. Not sure when it will happen, but good luck anyway.

 

[Gravypicante]

The number of people that have used NTFS and had it eat their drive suddenly is near 100%.

Oh. Well that seems like a fairly important detail.

I recall the documentation saying that NTFS is slow and should be avoided. Nothing about your all your data randomly getting toasted. That would have been useful to know earlier.

Thanks for the heads up! Really. You may have just saved the entirety of someone's "Computer Stuff". And helped me avoid lots of cursing/throwing of various objects.

 

[cyberjock]

Not to sound like a jerk, but if you look at my first post I said "You can't and shouldn't use NTFS on freenas long term". That should have been enough. I said shouldn't. Why would I have to include more info than that? Literally, I've stopped saying things twice because I get tired of having to say things twice. You got very lucky that I said it twice. I can't tell you how many people do what I told them not to do, then months later when the post that their drive isn't mount, pool is unavailable, etc I link back to my original post where I told them they shouldn't do that and say "enuff said".

 

[Gravypicante]

Not to sound like a jerk, but if you look at my first post I said "You can't and shouldn't use NTFS on freenas long term". That should have been enough. I said shouldn't. Why would I have to include more info than that? Literally, I've stopped saying things twice because I get tired of having to say things twice. You got very lucky that I said it twice. I can't tell you how many people do what I told them not to do, then months later when the post that their drive isn't mount, pool is unavailable, etc I link back to my original post where I told them they shouldn't do that and say "enuff said".

Well, I suppose it's a matter of how each person draws the line between minimally functional and dysfunctional.

Personally, I guess I only foresee my data being lost when the drive fails mechanically. Or, in the case of an SSD, when the memory goes bad after thousands of rewrites.

And that makes word choice very important. For any warnings on these forums, and the warning in the documentation.
Here's how I would understand it :
"When creating volumes in FreeNAS, use FormatX." = You will get the best performance, and reliability if you use this format.
"You should avoid using FormatX with FreeNAS." = Performance will be poor, but this format is still a reliable option.
"You cannot use FormatX with FreeNAS." = If a such a volume can even be mounted in FreeNAS, don't expect it to work correctly.

It is strange that FreeNAS makes it so easy to use an NTFS volume, considering how dangerous it is. A simple warning about unexpected data loss in the GUI would prevent the majority of FreeNAS users from losing all their files.

 

[cyberjock]

I actually put a ticket in to get NTFS support changed to read-only. https://bugs.freenas.org/issues/4129

As for the part about how you would understand it, I can't tell you much more except the rather blunt answer of "that's your own fault for making those assumptions". Imagine if you asked a friend that's a car mechanic about a problem with your car. He says you shouldn't drive it until he comes over to have a look. He used the same word I did.. "shouldn't". Would you make the same assumption?

To me, I take the literal forms of the words...

-If it says "use formatX" I'd assume that's what I "should" use. There is no guarantee as to what alternatives may or may not exist, or how well they make work. Only that you should use that format.
-If someone says I should avoid using FormatX I'd take it to mean that I "could" use it, but there are no guarantees in any regard. The feature is there for those wanting to use it.
If someone says "I cannot use FormatX" then that means I cannot use it.. at all. None of this "if such a volume can even be mounted in FreeNAS, don't expect it to work correctly". I just told you that you can't! That means cannot under any reasonable circumstances. Period.

I'm not sure what country you are from, or if English is your primary language. But you are the first I've ever heard from on these forums to say that a sentence with 'cannot' means you can, but at your own risk. If I google the definition of a few words it seems to confirm what I'm saying:

can't (or cannot) - the inability to or the unavailability of an option
should - to plan to, intend to, or expect to

Now if you look at my first post I said "You can't and shouldn't use NTFS on freenas long term. You need to use zfs or ufs." Again, that is correct because you shouldn't and you can't. Inevitably, if you chose to use it you won't be using it for long as you will eventually end up with a trashed file system. And once the file system is corrupt your data is gone. So there is no way you are going to use it for long even if you choose to use it. You'll be sorry. So I still stand by what I said before.

So I have to take your definition as far far more loosely than everyone else that uses the english language.

No offense intended for anything I've said above. Just trying to clarify things for you so there are no future misunderstandings with future questions and answers.

 

[Gravypicante]

Ha, yeah English is my native language. Not that I need any more clarification; just trying to explain why people might be having trouble with this issue.

The option to use NTFS is right there in front of you in the GUI. So why not? People are going to try it.

But you are the first I've ever heard from on these forums to say that a sentence with 'cannot' means you can, but at your own risk.

It would be nice if computers were a simple yes/no in terms of what can and can't be done. But there are lots of gray areas. That's just how it is. For example, the old junk computer I'm using right now has a motherboard which only takes original PCI Express cards ( Not PCIe2 or PCIe3 ). And newer PCI Express cards aren't backwards compatible. That said, I shoved a PCI Express 2 card in there anyway, and it's working fine.

Hmmm ... what was the point I was trying to make? Well I guess I'm just saying that FreeNAS users need to be made aware of the specific reasons why it's a bad idea. Not many people would be pushing their luck with NTFS if they realized that all their data could disappear tomorrow.

Thanks for taking the time to add that ticket.
Again, I appreciate your warning, and I'm sure many other users will too. But I don't think all these people losing their data are complete idiots. They probably just need a little more information.

 

[cyberjock]

It would be nice if computers were a simple yes/no in terms of what can and can't be done. But there are lots of gray areas. That's just how it is. For example, the old junk computer I'm using right now has a motherboard which only takes original PCI Express cards ( Not PCIe2 or PCIe3 ). And newer PCI Express cards aren't backwards compatible. That said, I shoved a PCI Express 2 card in there anyway, and it's working fine.

PCI express is backwards compatible. Both the slots and the cards are. They'll fall back to whatever speed is slowest between the two. But they have always been backwards compatible. PCI Express 1.0, when it was designed, was designed with the future in mind, and that backwards compatibility was part of the original specification before any hardware was made for the public.

Hmmm ... what was the point I was trying to make? Well I guess I'm just saying that FreeNAS users need to be made aware of the specific reasons why it's a bad idea. Not many people would be pushing their luck with NTFS if they realized that all their data could disappear tomorrow.

No, we don't have to tell you way. We aren't here to give you an education on the internals of FreeNAS. Just like Microsoft doesn't give out free certifications for their software. If Microsoft tells you that what you are doing is stupid, you can ask. They are under no obligation to tell you either. And we're talking open source software. All the answers are there if you want to look. You can't even make that claim with Microsoft Windows. I don't know about you, but all of use regular posters are unpaid volunteers.

And, we do make it clear in the manual(and standard IT practice) that backups should ALWAYS be a high priority.

Thanks for taking the time to add that ticket.
Again, I appreciate your warning, and I'm sure many other users will too. But I don't think all these people losing their data are complete idiots. They probably just need a little more information.

No, 99% of the time they do it despite us telling them not to. And frankly, if someone with thousands of posts tells you that you shouldn't do it and you do it anyway, you're probably an idiot. I don't sit here and give people random wrong information just to make them spend more money. Not to mention, the manual makes it crystal clear....

FreeNAS® supports the import of disks that have been formatted with UFS, NTFS, MSDOS, or EXT2. The import is meant to be a temporary measure in order to copy the data from a disk to a volume. Only one disk can be imported at a time.

I don't know how much more clear it could possibly be than that. ;)

 

[Gravypicante]

PCI express is backwards compatible. Both the slots and the cards are. They'll fall back to whatever speed is slowest between the two. But they have always been backwards compatible.

They are almost backwards compatible, but not quite. Which is why I thought it was a good example of the gray area I was talking about.

I don't know if you consider Wikipedia to be an authority or not, but here's some stuff from their "PCI Express" page :

• ... PCIe 2.0 cards are also generally backward compatible with PCIe 1.x motherboards, using the available bandwidth of PCI Express 1.1. Overall, graphic cards or motherboards designed for v2.0 will work with the other being v1.1 or v1.0a.
• ... Unfortunately, the increase in power from the slot breaks backward compatibility between PCI Express 2.1 cards and some older motherboards with 1.0/1.0a, but most motherboards with PCI Express 1.1 connectors are provided with a BIOS update by their manufacturers through utilities to support backward compatibility of cards with PCIe 2.1.

Originally, the card I mentioned did crash Windows ( blue screen ) on occasion. But (surprisingly) that no longer happened following a certain Windows update. So you really can't count on them being backwards compatible, even if you can get away with it 90% of the time.

... but nobody on the FreeNAS forums cares about PCI Express cards ... regarding the original topic :

I'm certainly not telling you what to do. I didn't intend for anything I said to be taken personally. And it was precisely because you are a volunteer that I wanted to lend a hand by explaining how a FreeNAS newbie sees things. Nor am I saying that a new FreeNAS user has any clue what they are doing. But I figured that trying to help such people would be less frustrating if you had some insight into their thought process.

FreeNAS® supports the import of disks that have been formatted with UFS, NTFS, MSDOS, or EXT2. The import is meant to be a temporary measure in order to copy the data from a disk to a volume. Only one disk can be imported at a time.

I don't know how much more clear it could possibly be than that.

Yes, people should follow the documentation. But again, the wording is "meant to be". People might think something along the lines of :
Okay, so the programmers added that feature as a way to pull your data off the disk. But I'm stuck with this NTFS stuff. Might as well give it a try and see if it still has all the options that a regular volume does. Even if it wasn't the intended use that the programmers had in mind, it would save me a lot of time/money.

Such a thought isn't amazingly intelligent. But it would be understandable. Simply adding a "Hey idiot, there's a good chance you will lose all your data if you try that.", would be enough to deter most users. Some people will still try it anyway, but I'm not talking about those individuals.

To emphasize: I'm not telling you what to say, and I'm not saying these people deserve to know this info. It's just a suggestion. I'm sure you don't enjoy wasting words. I imagine it would be refreshing to see a few more people take your warnings seriously. That's all.

Nor am I defending myself. I have no idea what the hell I'm doing. Which is why I went to the forums looking for some help with my issue.

 

[cyberjock]

You have totally impressed me with your explanation for the PCIe power usage. I actually had to go check the specs because I've never heard of this before. Everything I read said it was backwards compatible and if there was a discrepancy then I clearly didn't catch it when I read the specs. You did cite Wikipedia, which is usually accurate with things like this. I got very curious as to what the deal is with this since I read some of these specs for fun(yes, I'm pathetic and have no life). Anyway, so you are right, but also wrong. I'll explain.

When the PCIe 1.0 spec was released it allowed for up to 75watts from the PCIe slot(x16) plus two 6-pin power connectors for graphics cards(technically it says for graphics cards only, but some companies uses the added power for other cards... go figure!) for up to 225w total power usage(75w from slot, plus 75w from each 6-pin connector). With PCIe 2.0, the spec allowed for up to 75 watts from the PCIe slot and one 6-pin connector(75w) and one 8-pin connector(150w) for up to 300w of power. This was strictly on the PSU side of the house and didn't change the maximum power draw from the PCIe slot.

Note that 4x and 8x slots are limited to 25w and 1x to 10w regardless of PCIe version . Even the 16x slot must initially be at 25w. I couldn't find what "initially" was defined as and at what point it wasn't "initially" anymore. My guess is only during POST, but who knows.

With all that being said....

-If you bought a power supply that supports "PCIe 1.0 spec" then you can use it on a "PCIe 2.0 spec" card assuming it doesn't actually have an 8-pin connector or the manufacturer allows you to use the 6-pin connector in the 8-pin connector slot, but at a reduced speed due to the lower power available.
-If you buy a "PCIe 2.0 spec" PSU, then it will obviously be backwards compatible as the PSU will have to include the 8-pin and two 6-pin. Most PSUs will likely have the 8-pin as a 6+2 connector for convenience.

Now check out how smart us humans are... guess what the PCIe 3.0 spec calls for? Haha...(assume 75w from the slot at all times)

225w:
- Add 8-pin connector(150w)
- Add two 6-pin connectors(75w each)
- Add 8-pin connector(but only at 75w) and a 6-pin connector(75w)

300w
- Add 8-pin connector(150w) plus 6-pin connector(75w)
- Add three 6-pin connectors(75w each)
- Notice the conspicuous lack of two 8-pin connectors!?

What a joke! Guess we know what PCIe 4.0 is likely to have.. haha.

Anyway, so with that out of the way we both got some edumication out of this. Definitely caught me off-guard with your educational post. Thanks for that!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to the documentation...

At the end of the day, I realize that many people will ignore the documentation, or just not read it. Unfortunately, you can't fix "stupid", just like you can't force people to use the manual. I definitely recognize that people don't RTFM. I made my noobie guide and yet about 1/2 the questions asked in this forum are answered in my short presentation! Does it urk me? Heck yeah! I either ignore them or tell them to RTFM usually. I try to force them to fish so that they have to touch the documentation. Sure, sometimes it makes me look like a jerk(maybe even all of the time). But hopefully if they touch the documentation once they'll touch it a little more.. maybe even read it. That saves me from answering the same stupid questions over and over and maybe they'll read that one tidbit of info that saves them from losing their data.

Now, at the end of the day I look at the big picture like this. I was a FreeBSD/FreeNAS noob 2 years ago from today. I hadn't even touched a FreeBSD/FreeNAS system before. If I'm going to start using some software package I don't understand, I'm gonna put that program through the ringer and make sure I can do everything I need to do with it. I'm going to try to find weaknesses in the software, and I'm gonna try to break the software. I want total confidence that I'm using the software properly, I'm not doing anything to put my data at more risk than I may be realizing, and I want to know that if things start going wrong(bad hard drive, etc.) that I can handle the problems on my own, or have the expectation that I can find reasonable help from someone that will know the answers.

That being said, I spent almost a solid month with a test bed doing all sorts of nasty things to it. Pulling drives out with the system on, doing all those things the manual says not to do, etc. I also did a cubic boatload of forum reading and I read the manual cover to cover. I asked a lot of the stupid noob questions that I resent too. Go check them out! I was a moron! I put my guide together because there was no good all-you-can-eat quick document to help get some of this information straight. There's so much conflicting information out there(mostly between what is said in this forum about FreeNAS and the dozens of FreeNAS guides on youtube and elsewhere).

Now, if you chose not to do your due diligence and read the manual(only takes about 4 hours to read), and you choose to ignore my guide(maybe 20 minutes), then in my book you fail to do your due diligence. Now, it's not my job to judge you. But, you know what will judge you? Reality. And the reality of it is that you stand a very good chance of losing your data. Regardless of if you do NTFS or ZFS, etc. There's so many ways to get it wrong, and only a few ways to get it right. I just wrote in a post that someone did a 6-disk stripe and since 1 disk doesn't even spin-up anymore his data is permanently lost. I'm sure he's gonna poop in his pants when he finds out what he did wrong. And I have no doubt if he had read my guide and the manual he likely wouldn't have made that mistake. About 95% of the mistakes people make could have been prevented if they had read the manual and my guide. The other 5% are things that they assumed would work, appeared to work correctly, then later bit them in the butt. Mostly this is things like importing ZFS on linux pools and NAS4Free pools, running FreeNAS on ESXi or any type 2 hypervisor, etc. They aren't exactly covered in the manual, but people made the leap that it would work without understanding enough details about how FreeNAS works. We've created stickies for far too many things hoping that maybe if we provide another location for good info they might read it. They often don't anyway.

At the end of the day, its your data. How much time you spend doing your homework will determine how successful your FreeNAS experience is(I even mention this point in my guide!). Don't do your homework and you might be crying over lost bits later. I've seen it and I've heard it on Skype from people all over the planet. Some people even told me if I couldn't get their data back their marriage may be over because of the lost data. It's your data. You basically put a "value" on your data based on how much time, effort, and money you are willing to spend to do it right. Try to cut corners in one or more areas and you'll probably be back with a lost pool. Happens all the time. I used to care. Way too much in fact. But I don't anymore. People don't want to put an adequate value on their pool then come begging me to help them. Sorry, but inappropriate actions on your part does not constitute an emergency action on my part. I used to spend 20+ hours a week helping people.. for free! I stopped doing that. I offer my services to those that PM me, and that's that. If you lose your data, it was your responsibility to do it right.... and you didn't. I've tried to make stuff as clear and precise as possible. I don't always achieve that, but I try. It's nobody else's fault but your own though. Nobody will ever care about your data more than you do. Expecting anything more than that is just crazy talk IMO. It's not my job to educate you, it's not the manual's job to give explicit explanations for anything, but it's your job to make sure you look both ways before you cross the freeway. And choosing not to look can prove fatal for your data.

And you know, even after all that crap I just said, everyone that has ever even used a computer, let alone people that work in IT, have heard of "backups". And if you didn't want to make good ones, are you going to blame us for that?(that's rhetorical.. not directed at you). So, in theory, even after you kiss your pool goodbye, you should be able to recover. If you didn't make backups I'll go back to what I said above.. "you basically put a 'value' on your data based on how much time, effort, and money you are willing to spend to do it right". Sorry, but it's not a problem on my end if you didn't value your data enough when you chose a method of storing it.