Newbie first install experience

MurtaghsNAS

Dabbler
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
17
I am in the process of setting up my first TrueNAS Scale server, and thought I would record some of thoughts and experiences from doing this for the first time. I doubt it will have much value beyond UX (user experience) designers and other newbies previewing the process, but recording it is important because soon I will be experienced, and my perspective will be different.

Who Am I? I am a fairly experienced IT pro. I have filled a lot of roles professionally, from validation to support to systems administration, in a variety of organizations. I have never been a hardcore storage administrator, but you have to deal with storage at nearly every level of IT so you pick stuff up.

Why am I using TrueNAS Scale? I currently have a 4-bay QNAP system that I have been using for 5+years. It is a nice system, but between it approaching EOL and a need to massively upgrade my storage requirements to support digitizing my movie collection, it was time to consider upgrades. I had heard of FreeNAS/TrueNAS, and originally investigated them to be run as a VM. My timing however was excellent, and I discovered Scale. For my needs it offered a cleaner, better architected solution than my original plan of a VM server paired with a storage server.

First Install: After an overly dramatic hardware procurement process (let's just say a mere part of the story is FedEx taking 5 days to move a package 20 miles), I was finally to install Scale. I made my install disk, ran it, and the install just worked. In 10 minutes, the system was up and running happily. I had planned on at least three install attempts: one a disposable exploration, one a "oops, wrong way", and a final. But it all worked well the first try. This is not the typical for a complex piece of software. I mean, I have installed MythTV a dozen different times and I still don't feel confident I can do it right the first time. So Kudos to the TrueNAS team!

Early thoughts:
- The one thing I find missing compared to my QNAP is their file management utility, File Station. I really like having a one stop location to create directory structures, move files from one dataset to another, etc. It seems like something that could be filled with a custom app (or even a curated stock choice) added to the official apps.
- Now that Scale has a Linux base, supporting a couple of the more common file formats other than zfs could be advantageous. My case study is this: I have a m2 disk to house my VM operations on. I know it is a high-risk-of-loss configuration, and accept that risk. When I went to set up that pool, my only option was a striped configuration. I rather suspect I have hit upon a bug with that option (I was expecting zraid0) but that is beside the point. ZFS is not an ideal choice for any single drive configuration. An ext4 formatting would have been a better choice.
- I think going rootless might be a security improvement. Having the knowledge of the name of an all-powerful account on every Scale server is an advantage for someone trying to hack the servers. A comparison is an Ubuntu installation. With Ubuntu's rootless design, before a bad actor can compromise an administrator account, they have to identify one. It is a step that can be over come for sure, but every step you can slow the bad actors down is a win.
- One thing that I am struggling with currently is catching up with the tribal knowledge. This is true of most communities of specialists, but the exacting way language is used in TrueNAS and ZFS is more complex than normal. I'm sure once I have marinated in it for a bit things like ZVOLS and L2ARC will become clearer, but it takes time. Please when you are dealing with the newbies that Scale is going to attract, remember we barely know the lingo, much less the arcana.
- An addition to the forums here that would be nice to have is to pin a thread that details how to log a bug. Where do you go? What logs are expected and how do you get them. What is a best practices form explaining the bug that the developers can quickly triage. I think a good statement of expectations from leadership would generate more, higher quality bug reports.

As I populate my server, and proceed onward towards challenges such as transferring my VMs, I just wanted to log these first impressions. I am impressed so far. For a complex project still in beta, Scale is is really good shape. There are things that can and will be improved, but the team is doing a very good job and should feel proud of what they have done so far.
 

morganL

Captain Morgan
Administrator
Moderator
iXsystems
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Messages
2,694
I am in the process of setting up my first TrueNAS Scale server, and thought I would record some of thoughts and experiences from doing this for the first time. I doubt it will have much value beyond UX (user experience) designers and other newbies previewing the process, but recording it is important because soon I will be experienced, and my perspective will be different.

Who Am I? I am a fairly experienced IT pro. I have filled a lot of roles professionally, from validation to support to systems administration, in a variety of organizations. I have never been a hardcore storage administrator, but you have to deal with storage at nearly every level of IT so you pick stuff up.

Why am I using TrueNAS Scale? I currently have a 4-bay QNAP system that I have been using for 5+years. It is a nice system, but between it approaching EOL and a need to massively upgrade my storage requirements to support digitizing my movie collection, it was time to consider upgrades. I had heard of FreeNAS/TrueNAS, and originally investigated them to be run as a VM. My timing however was excellent, and I discovered Scale. For my needs it offered a cleaner, better architected solution than my original plan of a VM server paired with a storage server.

First Install: After an overly dramatic hardware procurement process (let's just say a mere part of the story is FedEx taking 5 days to move a package 20 miles), I was finally to install Scale. I made my install disk, ran it, and the install just worked. In 10 minutes, the system was up and running happily. I had planned on at least three install attempts: one a disposable exploration, one a "oops, wrong way", and a final. But it all worked well the first try. This is not the typical for a complex piece of software. I mean, I have installed MythTV a dozen different times and I still don't feel confident I can do it right the first time. So Kudos to the TrueNAS team!

Early thoughts:
- The one thing I find missing compared to my QNAP is their file management utility, File Station. I really like having a one stop location to create directory structures, move files from one dataset to another, etc. It seems like something that could be filled with a custom app (or even a curated stock choice) added to the official apps.
- Now that Scale has a Linux base, supporting a couple of the more common file formats other than zfs could be advantageous. My case study is this: I have a m2 disk to house my VM operations on. I know it is a high-risk-of-loss configuration, and accept that risk. When I went to set up that pool, my only option was a striped configuration. I rather suspect I have hit upon a bug with that option (I was expecting zraid0) but that is beside the point. ZFS is not an ideal choice for any single drive configuration. An ext4 formatting would have been a better choice.
- I think going rootless might be a security improvement. Having the knowledge of the name of an all-powerful account on every Scale server is an advantage for someone trying to hack the servers. A comparison is an Ubuntu installation. With Ubuntu's rootless design, before a bad actor can compromise an administrator account, they have to identify one. It is a step that can be over come for sure, but every step you can slow the bad actors down is a win.
- One thing that I am struggling with currently is catching up with the tribal knowledge. This is true of most communities of specialists, but the exacting way language is used in TrueNAS and ZFS is more complex than normal. I'm sure once I have marinated in it for a bit things like ZVOLS and L2ARC will become clearer, but it takes time. Please when you are dealing with the newbies that Scale is going to attract, remember we barely know the lingo, much less the arcana.
- An addition to the forums here that would be nice to have is to pin a thread that details how to log a bug. Where do you go? What logs are expected and how do you get them. What is a best practices form explaining the bug that the developers can quickly triage. I think a good statement of expectations from leadership would generate more, higher quality bug reports.

As I populate my server, and proceed onward towards challenges such as transferring my VMs, I just wanted to log these first impressions. I am impressed so far. For a complex project still in beta, Scale is is really good shape. There are things that can and will be improved, but the team is doing a very good job and should feel proud of what they have done so far.

Welcome "murtagh" and Thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts. I'll try to answer most.

1. Glad your 1st install went well... thank the community for al the testing.
2. File management utility. . some of that functionality is going into TrueCommand (free for small systems), but you can do it with clients.
3. Other file formats than ZFS .. unlikely unless there is strong demand. This requires a lot of changes and testing and ends up with a less reliable system. We'd have to do software RAID etc. Importing from other file formats is a reasonable goal. SCALE does add gluster and distributed minio.
4. Rootless is a goal...hope t make progress next year
5. Terminology... could improve that or education. The Documentation is still BETA as well and will improve.
6. report a bug is documented here: https://www.truenas.com/docs/contributing/issuereporting/bugsfeatures/

Many thanks for the compliments and constructive criticism.
 

melloa

Wizard
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
1,749
2. File management utility. . some of that functionality is going into TrueCommand (free for small systems)

Glad there is some thought put into it, but would be nice to have it in TrueNAS itself. That would make peoples' life easier to be more QNAP/DSM like.
One will say, what about File Station, Photos, ...
Well ... those can be implemented using plugins, VMs, etc, but move/copy files to/from directories from the GUI would be really nice :)
 

Ixian

Patron
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
218
There are many, and better, ways to accompish file management outside of TrueNAS.
 

morganL

Captain Morgan
Administrator
Moderator
iXsystems
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Messages
2,694
There are many, and better, ways to accompish file management outside of TrueNAS.
It always good to get a recommendation of your favorite system from someone with experience. It may save people hundreds of hours of work.
 

melloa

Wizard
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
1,749

stavros-k

Patron
Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
231
3. Other file formats than ZFS .. unlikely unless there is strong demand. This requires a lot of changes and testing and ends up with a less reliable system. We'd have to do software RAID etc. Importing from other file formats is a reasonable goal. SCALE does add gluster and distributed minio.

I think support for more file formats it's not just a goal, at least for the common ones, (NTFS, EXT4, XFS) ! It's a necessity, BUT not for daily use.
Just a way to dump data into TrueNAS (or get some big files faster on an external drive). Nothing more.

e.g. Someone who up until now was using tons of external drives to store/archive things, gets a NAS to consolidate their files.
Even 3-4 x 2TB drives would take ages to transfer via 1gbit lan (or even wifi). By being able to directly plug disks to nas would save ton of time and users will focus on enjoying the system rather that waiting for their files to transfer :)


A similar use case (which i will be dealing soon) is that i'm using Unraid now, with XFS drives, with nearly 10TB of data. Luckily I have a spare machine to boot scale with my new disks, and 2 spare 10gb nics.
But if i didn't had that, i would need some kind of usb adapter to plug my XFS HDDs to my laptop and move files over lan.

Anyway, I hope this gets implemented some time in the future, making users to join even easier :)
 

MurtaghsNAS

Dabbler
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
17
I think Stavros is correct. It isn't that we need a full suite of tools and support, we need a few basics that can be used in secondary use-cases such as import and export.

I would not think the development costs would be that high. Non-ZFS file formats are something your Debian upstream can worry about. I understand that TrueNAS is used to being a primary stakeholder with ZFS, being among the first to absorb the development stresses, and having to fix found issues. However, basic read/write issues of the top-five file-systems to single drive configurations, which I think is all we really need, is something that will be caught by Debian, Canonical, or somebody else. You don't have to do much beyond GUI integration, and a few late-cycle tests of mount, dismount, and file transfer.
 

danb35

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
15,504
Does SCALE not do this? Because CORE (and FreeNAS since 9.3, at least) has had the "import disk" feature for years--choose a disk, specify the filesystem, point it to a dataset, and it will mount the disk and copy the data over. I haven't played a lot with SCALE, but it seems odd that that feature wouldn't be there.
 
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