laptop and batteries running a nas at under 40watts?? but i need help

[fizzgig656]

Hi all, firstly ill apologise if im going over old ground, but for sh!ts n giggles i decided to try freeNAS on an oldish laptop to see if i could make a nice cheap low cost nas drive. And im very impressed. I'm running a pentium M 1.8 and 2gig of ram with a 4gb flash drive and a small internal hard drive. and on a consumption monitor is only pulling 19-31 watts depending on use and if the screen closed. I'm very impressed with it.
I'm now thinking of getting some PCMCIA sata cards and running larger HDD's. but my question is can anyone help me get freeNAS to see the internal laptop battery as a UPS? If so it will end up being a fully mobile (a bit pointless i know) self protected all in one nas? and if i can it'll run at under 100watts??

Any help gratefully received!!

cheers

 

[Yell]

search ebay for HDD caddy for notebook should cost aroung 10€ and will fit a second 2,5" hdd.
(Or look for USB/eSata enclosure)

 

[cyberjock]

Uhh.. a laptop battery is NOT an UPS, the hardware doesn't exist. FreeBSD surely has the ability to shut itself down if the laptop battery gets low, but how do you expect those external hard drives to get power from your laptop if they aren't powered by the same battery as the laptop. Even with another UPS to power the hard drives, the UPS will certainly run down before the laptop will, resulting in the potential loss of data in the zpool. Also the auto-shutdown of a laptop on its battery may have been removed from FreeNAS because it is ill conceived to consider running FreeNAS on a laptop.

Before you start spending lots of money on this project, you'd better ask yourself if its really worth it. Then after you think about it, go build a desktop. From other people's posts, a majority of PCMCIA cards aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Also, you're EXTREMELY limited with how many drives you can attach, the performance of your zpool, the hardware you can even install/upgrade to the laptop. You can build a full fledged desktop server that runs less than 100watts.

For the same reasons that using USB drives for zpools in FreeNAS is a bad idea, using a laptop for a FreeNAS server is the same bad idea. Lots of cables, and even if stationary, one accidental unplugging of a power strip, a USB hub, SATA expander, whatever, can cause multiple drives to go offline. Suddenly you have a failed zpool and a very unhappy administrator.

Overall, while it sounds great when you think about it, the implementation is very messy, riddled with problems, and even if it works, will store your data unreliably because of the workarounds to get those issues resolved.

 

[fizzgig656]

Uhh.. a laptop battery is NOT an UPS, the hardware doesn't exist. FreeBSD surely has the ability to shut itself down if the laptop battery gets low, but how do you expect those external hard drives to get power from your laptop if they aren't powered by the same battery as the laptop. Even with another UPS to power the hard drives, the UPS will certainly run down before the laptop will, resulting in the potential loss of data in the zpool. Also the auto-shutdown of a laptop on its battery may have been removed from FreeNAS because it is ill conceived to consider running FreeNAS on a laptop.

Before you start spending lots of money on this project, you'd better ask yourself if its really worth it. Then after you think about it, go build a desktop. From other people's posts, a majority of PCMCIA cards aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Also, you're EXTREMELY limited with how many drives you can attach, the performance of your zpool, the hardware you can even install/upgrade to the laptop. You can build a full fledged desktop server that runs less than 100watts.

For the same reasons that using USB drives for zpools in FreeNAS is a bad idea, using a laptop for a FreeNAS server is the same bad idea. Lots of cables, and even if stationary, one accidental unplugging of a power strip, a USB hub, SATA expander, whatever, can cause multiple drives to go offline. Suddenly you have a failed zpool and a very unhappy administrator.

Overall, while it sounds great when you think about it, the implementation is very messy, riddled with problems, and even if it works, will store your data unreliably because of the workarounds to get those issues resolved.

I fully understand your points and a battery is not a ups, but could be utilised in a similar-ish way, and if i was building it all new id probably have gone that route and although it started out as a muck about, it seemed a good play about at the time!, I did make a atom based desktop a while ago and it was using 60 to 100w with one 2.5 and one 3.5 hdd. and at idle i had the laptop using 16watts... just thought it was worth a play.
battery wise it is all a work in progress...thoughts were to have the laptop power off as soon as its main power is lost. Like i say i am new to this and i have lots of "idea's", its as if they are feasible.
This will only be a home nas if it works and all passes testing etc. If i can get it working i will be cutting bits about, even some soldering????? lets say ive got 3 laptops of the same model to "work with?" what fun..

i agree its silly really, but thought it was worth an experiment, still any advise on reconising or setting battery use please?

 

[JaimieV]

The important bit is that unless you use computer-powered drives the hard drives will power down before the computer if the power goes out. The "UPS" is not protecting the external drives, so it shouldn't be considered useful.

But if you can power your drives from the computer, all is good!

Pretty much all modern 2.5" drives can be powered by USB (when in an appropriate caddy), they come in Tb sizes now, and I believe it's possible to get eSATA-with-power too (though I don't know of any PCMCIA interfaces with it).

I guess the best setup would be eSATA connected 2.5" drives powered from the USB bus.

 

[fizzgig656]

The important bit is that unless you use computer-powered drives (which perfectly possible, 2.5" drives come in Tb size nowadays) the hard drives will power down before the computer if the power goes out. The "UPS" is not protecting enough to be considered useful.

But if you can power your drives from the computer, all is good!

Most 2.5" drives can be powered by USB, and I believe it's possible to get eSATA-with-power too (though I don't know of any PCMCIA interfaces with it). I guess the best would be eSATA connected 2.5" drives powered from the USB bus.

ok, cheers, ive got to investigate the powering of drives from the laptop, i am aware of some of the power issues, but how to i configure freenas to work with the battery or power down when the mains is gone, or at a point of battery %???

 

[JaimieV]

I've no idea about that, sorry! Just wanted to make the power situation clear.

 

[cyberjock]

ok, cheers, ive got to investigate the powering of drives from the laptop, i am aware of some of the power issues, but how to i configure freenas to work with the battery or power down when the mains is gone, or at a point of battery %???

My advice would be to install FreeNAS and unplug your laptop. If FreeNAS has support for laptop batteries it should run itself down and then shutdown when battery power gets low. If the laptop runs until the battery dies then you have a problem. In any case you can't use the battery as a UPS(you appear to have already made that realization). I'm really not sure why you want to use the battery as a UPS when most modern OSes use the laptop battery as a laptop battery. You tell the laptop to go to sleep/hibernate/shutdown at a certain battery power. What does a UPS do that the laptop battery, in that function, not do?

If FreeNAS doesn't seem to recognize your battery you could put in a ticket at support.freenas.org. I'm not sure if it'll be implemented anytime in the forseeable future. Logistically its completely idiotic idea to use a laptop as a FreeNAS server except to screw around with FreeNAS to learn how it works. I use a VM to experiment with FreeNAS, but it holds no important data at all. Anyone that wants to experiment with FreeNAS shouldn't really care about proper shutdowns of FreeNAS because it shouldn't normally be on except when you are breaking/fixing/tweaking FreeNAS and it'll have no important data on it.

Even if the hard drives are USB/esata powered, you still run serious risk of data loss from accidentally unplugging cables, which is the main failure for people that use USB for FreeNAS. They inevitable come crying when their zpool goes down and wish they could undo the damage to their zpool because they unplugged stuff on accident. I just don't want to see you as one of "those guys". Lost data is zero fun.

 

[fizzgig656]

I agree with the comment and idiotic thoughts and as i said, if i was buying the bits and making it from scratch i would buy desktop stuff, but it all started as a theory which quickly turned into a experiment, thats gone better than i expected. the theory was with most specifically prebuilt cheap NAS drives running low cpu and hardly any RAM that a laptop should perform as good or better?
If it does seem to work and hold together i was thinking of stripping the laptop down to its MB and putting the guts into a old desktop shell with the HDD on a front access caddy? andactually make use of it, But only after testing a lot!! This would sort out any usb sata cables (well bring it to the same vulnerability as a desktop/server for anything being disturbed or unplugged?)
I will try the power to see if it see's it, but it would be nice to change the setting? I will have a look at the supported stuff on freeDSB as well, they seem to have a laptop article.

I did think this would be a unconventional "projected" and might also be of interest to anyone¬!

 

[cyberjock]

I love experimenting with things that are unconventional just to see how it works. But really, FreeNAS is heavily customized to work best with a USB, designed to be low power, etc. As soon as you start walking outside that "designed for" area, you're really in territory that isn't necessary useful to anyone. You're the first person I've seen to actually start asking questions in depth questions with FreeNAS, somewhat implying you want to use it for long term. It's really not worth it long-term because of the proprietary nature of laptop hardware, PCMCIA hardware, USB limitations, upgradability of a laptop etc. I experimented with FreeNAS on a laptop using the internal drive as a zpool, for 2 days. It was only for experimenting and the zpool never had any actual data in it.

Your time spent trying to repurpose a laptop will be for your benefit alone. Nobody in their right mind would really try to re-purpose a laptop for FreeNAS as a long term solution. Too much proprietary stuff, and the money spent making all of this hardware work with your laptop will be for nothing if any laptop parts fail. You just can't replace a power board, NIC, or main board of a laptop as easily as an ATX solution. Not to mention that the replacement parts can be extravagantly expensive if you have to buy new and not used.

 

[fizzgig656]

I understand, and i did mention at the start it began as a dick-about and to see how low in energy a NAS could be (losts of us would like something thats left on 24/7 to be as low as possible), i just thought freeNAS could be for students living at home to full blown administrators and this idea/experiment could of use or interst. What started out at a chat when i was discussing NAS drives for my own home personal use fell into a bit of a challenge at work to see if the OS would even run at first them moved on and so on progressed, surely thinking outside the box is sometimes whats needed to progress things, change things and bring up different or weird idea's. Hence i though some of this may be of some use (limited i know) to some body, maybe some designer might fine this interesting (delusions in sure).
The other MB's ive got to play with will draw 40-100w minimum so 14-16w was just interesting. most cheap nas drives seem to use alot of energy too and although (a year to two ago) i used an atom based PC which used more than 40watts. In all honestly i will problably have to look at buying something, at that will probably be a new MB, any low power, low cost idea's???

If anyone is intersted, im just having fun playing with it, its now running at just 14watts, on the network and running 1 2.5 HDD at idle, at read its 29watts. i think ive given up on the battery thread, unless anyone can shed some light. but on the PCMCIA, pccard or buscard if anyone can expand. Ive read freeDSB have some support for pcmcia on laptops but can not seem to find the config they talk about, not quite my area at all. anyone help on that side please?

 

[cyberjock]

I have a D2500 Atom based computer. It runs 17w loaded with an SSD hard drive, the two built-in NICs and a USB wifi running pfsense. I remember reading that the 1st gen Intel Atoms had some issues; performance was sub-par and the motherboard chipset used more power than the CPU because Intel used a very old chipset(likely to empty out some warehouse somewhere). The new Intel Atoms are much better. Performance is much higher and power usage is much lower.

Atoms make very good low power servers if you are looking for a server that can stream 1-3 HD movies through the house at the same time and you don't have delusions of 100+MB/sec. It'll be slow, but it'll get the work done.

As I said before, PCMCIA, PCCARD, and BUSCARD may have been removed from FreeNAS because its not really smart to use a laptop. Have you tried plugging in any random card to the laptop and see if you get a pop-up that new hardware was detected? If you don't then my guess is its not supported. You could then try FreeBSD 8.3, but if that doesn't detect the hardware then its likely not supported by FreeBSD at all :(

 

[fizzgig656]

I have a D2500 Atom based computer. It runs 17w loaded with an SSD hard drive, the two built-in NICs and a USB wifi running pfsense. I remember reading that the 1st gen Intel Atoms had some issues; performance was sub-par and the motherboard chipset used more power than the CPU because Intel used a very old chipset(likely to empty out some warehouse somewhere). The new Intel Atoms are much better. Performance is much higher and power usage is much lower.

Atoms make very good low power servers if you are looking for a server that can stream 1-3 HD movies through the house at the same time and you don't have delusions of 100+MB/sec. It'll be slow, but it'll get the work done.

As I said before, PCMCIA, PCCARD, and BUSCARD may have been removed from FreeNAS because its not really smart to use a laptop. Have you tried plugging in any random card to the laptop and see if you get a pop-up that new hardware was detected? If you don't then my guess is its not supported. You could then try FreeBSD 8.3, but if that doesn't detect the hardware then its likely not supported by FreeBSD at all :(

Yep i think my atom was the first gen, put me off, the read up was the north or southbridge(cant remember now) was drawing more, maybe ill try a newer one?

 

[fizzgig656]

OK. So moving forward, I'm trying to see what to look for in the new atoms, I've seems lots, d2700,d2500,d545,d525,d420,d410 etc. I'm guessing ddr3, pci-e, gig LAN? And tell tales for lowest power consumption?

 

[cyberjock]

What I did because I didn't want to be disappointed with performance for my pfsense box..

I googled each CPU by model. In my case, I Googled "D2500". Then always opened the links for the ark.intel.com results, like http://ark.intel.com/products/59682/Intel-Atom-Processor-D2500-1M-Cache-1_86-GHz. It's usually the first result when I did my searching.

Read up on what it supports. For me I looked at launch date(didn't want 1st gen CPU), # of cores and threads, Max TDP and lithography(wanted smallest lithography I could find), and how much RAM I could use. You should Google a particular motherboard to see if a given motherboard uses more RAM than it claims. Alot of people have found that they can use more than the manufacturers claim.

Then make the jump. The one good thing about Atoms is that the motherboard/CPU is often quite cheap. I'd recommend a motherboard with Intel NICs built-in for simplicity. I'd recommend you look for an Atom that supports 16GB of RAM.

 

[fizzgig656]

What I did because I didn't want to be disappointed with performance for my pfsense box..

I googled each CPU by model. In my case, I Googled "D2500". Then always opened the links for the ark.intel.com results, like http://ark.intel.com/products/59682/Intel-Atom-Processor-D2500-1M-Cache-1_86-GHz. It's usually the first result when I did my searching.

Read up on what it supports. For me I looked at launch date(didn't want 1st gen CPU), # of cores and threads, Max TDP and lithography(wanted smallest lithography I could find), and how much RAM I could use. You should Google a particular motherboard to see if a given motherboard uses more RAM than it claims. Alot of people have found that they can use more than the manufacturers claim.

Then make the jump. The one good thing about Atoms is that the motherboard/CPU is often quite cheap. I'd recommend a motherboard with Intel NICs built-in for simplicity. I'd recommend you look for an Atom that supports 16GB of RAM.

ok thanks, cheers for the advise, narrowed it to D2500, d2700 or d2550, all seem very simular, think the 2500 was 2 core 2 threads all the others were 4 threads. but simular watt's

 

[fizzgig656]

Dam projects. Now spend money on psu, MBA d2700mud and a 4 sata caddy/bay. Looks like I'm going for it now.....