HW Raid; How do I turn off irrelevant ZFS scrubs/checks.

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thadwald

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I have just set up a FreeNAS system for our school, running on a repurposed HP DL380 G6 server, which has an integrated P410 controller. It is running a single quad core E5520 and 8GB ECC DDR3. I was concerned that it would draw too much power but it seems to sit at a bit over 100w.

This controller does not have a JBOD feature. It manages all raid, features, surfaces scans, disk rebuilding, etc., and exposes only the logical drives to the rest of the system.

My question: How do I configure my system to disable all ZFS raid and checks that are irrelevant on a system that uses hardware raid. For example, it doesn't make sense to run scrubs, as it would only scrub the controller. Is it good enough to just not set up any scrubs in the schedule?
 

depasseg

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The scrubs are still useful, even with only one disk (since you've decided to use HW RAID). The scrub will tell you when you have corrupt data.

And just in case you didn't know, you can add a $75 HBA to that system to let you really take advantage of ZFS, instead of relying on HW RAID.
 

thadwald

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Can you explain how a ZFS scrub identifies corrupt data? I thought it needs data mirrors on other disks in order to run checksums.

Adding a PCIe riser to the system automatically increases the system fan speed, which I would like to avoid. Also, while adding a SATA HBA would let me take advantage of more ZFS features, it would not let me take advantage of the p410i features. Is that not like saying adding a cheap video card will let me take advantage of software rendering?
 

Bidule0hm

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It needs redundancy to correct corrupt data but not to detect it.
 

depasseg

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It looks like you can change the setting of the P410 to be in either HBA or Raid mode.
http://viktorbalogh.net/blog/hardware/servers/changing-a-p410i-from-hba-mode-to-raid-mode

I'm not sure what is what in your video card analogy. But I can say that FreeNAS with ZFS will give you better error checking (and correction if you use a RaidZ variant). Rebuilds are easily managed via the GUI, hot spares can be configured, and email notifications of failures are possible.

If you use the raid capabilities of the p410, how do you receive notifications of drive failure?
 

thadwald

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I was going to depend on the lights on the unit to notify me of disk failures. It sits next to my office, hence the importance of quiet operation.

Thanks for posting that link. I will take a closer look at it but I am still under the impression that I cannot enable HBA mode. Mine is a HP Proliant DL380 and apparently you cannot do this on the Proliant models.
 

jgreco

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Can you explain how a ZFS scrub identifies corrupt data?

Because the checksums read while scrubbing don't match the checksums written when the data was committed.

I thought it needs data mirrors on other disks in order to run checksums.

I don't even have any idea how that'd work.

Adding a PCIe riser to the system automatically increases the system fan speed, which I would like to avoid. Also, while adding a SATA HBA would let me take advantage of more ZFS features, it would not let me take advantage of the p410i features. Is that not like saying adding a cheap video card will let me take advantage of software rendering?

Yes, to use that analogy, you have a cheap video card in your server now. It has crappy hardware based DirectX 8 rendering. Your modern software can do it better and faster in software but you are probably thinking because it's hardware it must be better. That is wrong, but do feel free to do as you see fit. You'll find out later that it stabs you in the back in some unpredictable manner. There are no features of the P410 that are useful or desirable. I seem to recall that the P410 uses either the PMC Sierra or possibly LSI1068, both of which have a laundry list of caveats and gotchas. Not highly FreeNAS-compatible (well the LSI is but the 2.2TB thing is a minefield).
 

thadwald

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I appreciate your insight. I am new to this and naturally, I presumed that dedicated hardware is better than software. Honestly, if I could enable HBA mode on my controller, I would do it.

As for features on the p410, one in particular that I appreciate having, that ZFS does NOT, is the ability to expand pools. Other desirable features include near zero processor load, surface scans, many different raid options, etc. If the 2.2TB issue you refer to is a drive size limit, that has been fixed. I am running 4TB drives at the moment.

What I really don't like about it is the fact that HP does not supply BSD utilities for it. For example, I cannot even access SMART information except through a jail. Perhaps that is the real beauty of software raid; less junk to get in your way.
 

SweetAndLow

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Why is this thread still alive? The op is trying to use a hardware raid card that will most likely result in losing the entire pool. The op also hasn't read any information on FreeNas/zfs. I'm not sure what they mean when they say you can't expand a zfs pool, you can easily expand a zfs pool. And the user is putting a lot of value in these other raid features that seem to be worthless.
 

DJ9

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He will become another statistic. Possible outcome not looking good. o_O
 

jgreco

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I appreciate your insight. I am new to this and naturally, I presumed that dedicated hardware is better than software.

Right, that's why we're guiding you away from it. I'm the king of pricey dedicated hardware. But that also includes an understanding of whyitfails.

I have two Ascend/NetStar Gigarouters in inventory here, purchased nearly twenty years ago, for over $100,000. They once provided about half the Internet connectivity for a major American metro area. One of the very first wirespeed routers, they were out of service within about five years because the world had just passed it by. Today, a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter is able to perform very high speed gigabit routing in hardware-assisted software ... and only costs a hundred bucks, less than one one-thousandth of the Gigarouters.

Part of the deal with specialized hardware is that you have to be willing to let go rather quickly. That's one of the reasons I tend to prefer general purpose gear, you can often retask it to some new and different task. The P410 wasn't an outstanding controller even in 2009 when it was introduced. We've got some in production on hypervisors. They are poor performers. Their batteries die and need replacing. All the usual crap.

Honestly, if I could enable HBA mode on my controller, I would do it.

As for features on the p410, one in particular that I appreciate having, that ZFS does NOT, is the ability to expand pools.

First, ZFS does have the ability to expand its pool. You do, however, have to do it the ZFS way.

But let us look for a moment at what you're saying. Indeed, you can allocate more disk space to a P410 LUN. That's a nice feature. But if you do so on a ZFS based system, ZFS has no way to grow into that added space. It doesn't recognize that the underlying device has fundamentally changed, because ZFS is designed to be directly accessing raw hard disks, and raw hard disks don't just suddenly grow in size without also changing other characteristics. I deem the P410's space expansion a worthless feature if you're using the controller on a FreeNAS box.

Other desirable features include near zero processor load,

What else is your NAS supposed to be doing? You want to pay good money for a CPU just to leave it idle?

surface scans,

ZFS calls that scrubbing

many different raid options, etc.

*ZFS* has many different RAID options. Your P410 does not have triple parity RAID, or the ability to aggregate a few hundred disks into a single pool.

If the 2.2TB issue you refer to is a drive size limit, that has been fixed. I am running 4TB drives at the moment.

The 2.2TB thing is an unfixable hardware issue that relates to the use of 32 bit integers instead of 64. It plagues the LSI1068. I *think* the P410 is PMC Sierra though.

What I really don't like about it is the fact that HP does not supply BSD utilities for it.

Well, there's that. I think there's a native hpacucli but it was for FreeBSD 7, and that means a lot of puttering around. More troubling would be that the ciss driver seems very focused on obscuring problems with the physical storage from the host, which leads to unintended consequences.

For example, I cannot even access SMART information except through a jail. Perhaps that is the real beauty of software raid; less junk to get in your way.

Well, that's more or less it. You're supposed to see ZFS itself as being your RAID controller. It was designed that way and offers massive resources to the well-designed NAS appliance. Where are you going to find a RAID controller with ~~50GB of read cache and half a dozen GB of write cache (on a 64GB FreeNAS system)? The potential traffic ZFS can push at the underlying storage system is staggering, and can cause significant problems with a crappy several-gen-old controller like the P410 because it just totally swamps the poor thing.
 

cyberjock

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You know, I didn't get far in this thread before I realized that thadwald probably doesn't really grasp how all this works, and is in for a real mess when he figures out how totally fubared he is right now....

Here's to hoping he takes everyone's advice (you know, the same advice we've been giving for 4 years, and the same advice the manual and just about every ZFS guide out there says).
 

thadwald

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You are correct; I don't grasp how all of this works. I have 2 weeks of experience with freenas. That's why , I presume, you have this forum and why I am asking. JGreco was kind enough to explain how some things work, and as a result, saved me a lot of trial and error.
 

cyberjock

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You are correct; I don't grasp how all of this works. I have 2 weeks of experience with freenas. That's why , I presume, you have this forum and why I am asking. JGreco was kind enough to explain how some things work, and as a result, saved me a lot of trial and error.

Fair enough. I just hope this is hitting home and you are realizing you are making a few major mistakes you should correct before considering using this server to store real data. People that have made mistakes just like yours (even using your controller) have found that one day they reboot their machine (reason is inconsequential) and they reboot to find all of their data is just gone. No recovery options.

Good places for some self-learning are our stickies and my noobie guide (link in my sig).
 

jgreco

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You are correct; I don't grasp how all of this works. I have 2 weeks of experience with freenas. That's why , I presume, you have this forum and why I am asking. JGreco was kind enough to explain how some things work, and as a result, saved me a lot of trial and error.

And note that while we may seem unfairly tough on hardware like the P410, most of us make the assumption that you've arrived at FreeNAS because you want a rock solid, stable way to store important data. I used to do OS engineering for medical monitoring devices in the operating room ("device fails -> patient could die"). Cyberjock has a history in the nuclear industry (or was it the Navy). As such, we tend not to make risky compromises when designing things, yet we're also aware of being cost-conscious.

We definitely want to get new users straightened out and pointed in the right direction, but the practical reality of it is that many predesigned servers such as the HP are built to run Windows or ESXi, and so some of the integrated hardware is virtually useless. There's no good path forward for you that I can think of which includes "continue to run FreeNAS" and "use the P410". I realize that the alternatives are probably unpalatable. Another option is to run some other NASware package that doesn't use ZFS.

There's a lot to learn here and the learning curve is steep. We understand that and that's why I turned the video card thing around on you the way I did. We'll try to point you in the right direction. Read the stickies, do some homework, you'll still have questions but there will be people who are happy to help bring you through the remaining unanswered questions you'll inevitably have.
 

jgreco

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@jgreco, you just gave the better decription I can imagine of what I always think when I see posts like this. Why do you want to build a stronghold out of paper? It just defeats the purpose.

Those of us who've been here awhile are all about reliability and durability. It's THE big reason to go ZFS, IMHO.
 
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