[DISCUSSION] Adding capacitors to dying PSU gives it more life [NOT]

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purduephotog

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If it is randomly rebooting, I'd go with, in order, psu, ram, CPU, short/solder trace.

You could, though I don't recommend it, attach some large filter caps across the 5v and 12v rails. They'd help even out any spikes.

Do you have a dmm? Stuff the probes in one of the connectors and just watch or record any fluctuations prior to shutdown. I had a PSU once that would randomly drop the 12v rail to 9v. Could never figure out what was wrong...
 

ProtoSD

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Re: Please help! Started up FreeNAS, suddenly voluime storage (ZFS) status unknown?!

You could, though I don't recommend it, attach some large filter caps across the 5v and 12v rails. They'd help even out any spikes.

Generally this is what a UPS helps with, that is besides power failures.
 

purduephotog

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Generally this is what a UPS helps with, that is besides power failures.

I would respectfully disagree on that point. The capacitors help a failing, or perhaps a poor, power supply maintain and deliver surge current . A UPS (just) protects all the hardware.

Now I have about 7 spare supplies laying around, so I can always swap a questionable one out. But if I didn't have one, a couple of caps or a high speed dmm might tell me if the supply under load is bad. Then again, I hate messing with production equipment.

I'm using this thread to beat some ups units into our budget for this next year :smile:
 

ProtoSD

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Re: Please help! Started up FreeNAS, suddenly voluime storage (ZFS) status unknown?!

I have a background in Electrical Engineering, disagree all you like :rolleyes:

If you're trying to be a cheap bastard and milk a failing power supply with capacitors, you're just asking for other hardware problems that are going to cost you more later. Ughhhh

Bad, bad, bad advice.
 

cyberjock

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Re: Please help! Started up FreeNAS, suddenly voluime storage (ZFS) status unknown?!

I have a background in Electrical Engineering, disagree all you like :rolleyes:

If you're trying to be a cheap bastard and milk a failing power supply with capacitors, you're just asking for other hardware problems that are going to cost you more later. Ughhhh

Bad, bad, bad advice.
As a former instrument maintenance tech at a nuclear power station, I can tell you that adding capactors DOES help, mathematically, with maintaining voltage.

But by putting a cap in the circuit, you aren't doing your PSU any favors when you power up the machine(where the starting surge is highest) because that cap will need a charge, and the first second or two the PSU is powered on will draw some serious power to the cap. If you don't know how to use capacitor and did starting current calcs you could blow up the cap inside your machine from being charged too frequently.

But realistically, if your power supply is in such bad shape that it needs an extra cap to stay within spec I'd never trust that PSU to not blow all my hardware up if it overvolts/undervolts frequently. Yes, undervoltage can damage electronics just as bad as overvolt. The PSU is on its way out and should be removed from the system ASAP.

Just telling people to add a cap that doesn't actually have a career in the electronic/electrical field is a MAJOR mistake as that can be very dangerous to you, to your equipment, or both. People have died from exploding capacitors. There's a reason why every PSU made has that sticker that says "no user servicable parts inside".

An UPS, while it won't fix an ailing PSU(which I already discussed should be replaced ASAP) will definitely provide necessary power during short power outages that could cause data to not be committed to the zpool, but should have been. Partial writes are a killer for all file systems(ZFS included) and preventing them should be a VERY high priority.
 

ProtoSD

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Re: Please help! Started up FreeNAS, suddenly voluime storage (ZFS) status unknown?!

As a former instrument maintenance tech at a nuclear power station, I can tell you that adding capactors DOES help, mathematically, with maintaining voltage.

Yes, true, to a point, but if if its not part of the design and the PSU is failing, you can end up with smoke, fire, exploding caps, and an ultimate spike that will fry slightly more sensitive electronics, and cause data loss. The tolerances on motherboards etc. are a lot tighter and more sensitive to dirty AC that can leak through, especially when running things like refrigerator motors, vacuums, and other noisy things on or close to the same circuit. It's kind of like hearing the alternator on your old AM car radio :eek:, computer circuits "hear" that kind of noise too.

But realistically, if your power supply is in such bad shape that it needs an extra cap to stay within spec I'd never trust that PSU to not blow all my hardware up if it overvolts/undervolts frequently. Yes, undervoltage can damage electronics just as bad as overvolt. The PSU is on its way out and should be removed from the system ASAP.

Just telling people to add a cap that doesn't actually have a career in the electronic/electrical field is a MAJOR mistake as that can be very dangerous to you, to your equipment, or both. People have died from exploding capacitors. There's a reason why every PSU made has that sticker that says "no user servicable parts inside".

EXACTLY

A good UPS has 2 sides, the battery charging side, and the inverter side, which runs from that clean DC battery. There shouldn't be any spikes etc., that happens in the charging side. I run all my valuable electronics, including TV on a UPS (not the surge suppressor outlets). I've found over the years it makes my toys run and last much longer.
 

purduephotog

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Oh, I never said I wasn't being cheap. I was just tossing it out there as a way to potentially fix and mitigate any undiagnosed issues with a PSU when there wasn't a spare swap available.

My background is Chem/Chemical Engineering and I took the EE courses for fun and as a way to broaden my experience. Working in an electronics lab here currently. I have the utmost respect for EE's and their knowledge of how things work. I also spend a lot of my time fixing things that weren't designed properly or utilized in the correct manner... I've been in 'fix it' mode for about 3 years.
 

jgreco

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ProtoSD and cyberjock are basically right on with the "don't do this" advice. However, I'd like to expand a bit.

Modern power supplies are based on a switching design, replacing old linear regulated supplies that effectively burned off ("dissipated") unwanted power as heat in order to arrive at the correct amount of power. Switched power supplies dissipate much less energy. However, they are significantly more complicated, requiring a careful and thoughtful design that marries transistors, capacitors, and inductors ... and typically a well-designed supply can push a good bit beyond its design specs for a brief time. Inability to sustain load is a sign of failure in progress, and with the voltages and stresses present within a power supply, you are likely to get additional failures in the near future as additional components overheat/melt/burn/short out.

Propping up the 12V (or 5V or whatever) with a capacitor to smooth might seem like a good idea, but it isn't. The typical ATX power supply may be supplying 40-80 AMPS of power, and that ought to be run through very heavy wire (6 AWG probably to handle the load, somewhat less might be okay to handle "boost"). But you have some serious hook-up issues: the 12V inside the power supply is passed to the connectors on 18 or (maybe if lucky) 16 AWG wire, you can't just clip on to one of those wires and hope for the best. Worse, many power supplies have multiple 12V rails, where independent current limiting circuitry (and who knows, maybe even independent 12V regulation?) is used on some of that, so you can't just tie all the 12V together outside the supply and then redistribute through a custom harness... So unless your capacitor is hooked up with a Frankenstein rig that takes all of these things into consideration, DANGER. And if your capacitor is hooked up with such a Frankenstein rig, EVEN MORE DANGER. Here, a little fun reading to scare you a bit.

But really, what this does is to subvert the whole PWRGOOD mechanism, because powering on is one of the major stressors in a power supply's life. cyberjock made a basically-equivalent point already but it's so important it deserves repeating. If PWRGOOD is indicated, the motherboard is being told that the power is stable and that CPU operations can commence. If the supply is already struggling to deal with your system's load, adding caps isn't doing it a favor.

If your power supply is incapable of powering your server without letting bad things through, REPLACE THE FSCKING SUPPLY. For a FreeNAS box, presumably you've got several hard disks, memory, CPU, chassis, so the average FreeNAS user probably has at least $500 invested in their system. FreeNAS users have probably chosen FreeNAS because they want ZFS to protect their data. But part of protecting your data is not engaging in risky behaviours to begin with. You wouldn't just pile all of your hard drives on the bottom of your chassis in a heap and expect that to be a good way to run them, would you?
 

cyberjock

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Hehe. When I was in the Navy on submarines we had a giant battery that could power the entire ship in an emergency. Regularly the guys in my workgroup had to go clean the "battery well". There were stories of guys that would accidentally drop their wrenches, hammers, etc on the battery bars on accident. There would be a loud bang, a bright flash, a ball of plasma, and you'd never find any part of the tool ever again. :P

Thankfully, we all heeded the warning and made sure that our tools were properly insulated so as to not witness that first hand. People had ended up blind for life from it from what we had been told.
 

jgreco

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1.jpg

So yeah that looks like that'd suck to work on (wonder if that'll be readable). At least in a data center, you usually have a little more room.

BatteryRoom.jpg

Either way, you don't want to be the chump who drops the wrench, heh.
 

cyberjock

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Yeah. You literally crawl over the battery.. :P
 

Zen L

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Interesting discussion,.. I thought I would add to it. In a moment of boredom, I once added capacitors to the main inline capacitors, capacitors across the 5v and 12v connectors to the hard drives and the 3.3v line to the motherboard, to a cheap PSU. Scary huh,..but no adverse effects, no exploding anything and I ran it that way for a year. Sadly I couldn't test if had any effect on ripple ,etc., (didn't have the equipment.) The experiment was to see what happened to the PSU or the computer. Nothing did ...
 

cyberjock

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Nothing should have. The capacitor would charge up(pretty rapidly if you didn't have a resistor on it) and some of the possible outcomes were:

1. Capacitor blew up when you powered it up.
2. Capacitor shorted(either immediately or at a later date) and you had a mini-fireball on your hands.
3. Nothing at all.
 
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